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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:54 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:It was Penthesilea :)

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:
He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.


He just thought she was a looker, then :P

Sjoerd3000 wrote:It was Penthesilea :)

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:
He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.


He just thought she was a looker, then :P

The whole wrath of Achilles is all about Menelaos requiring a female slave of Achilles, Briseis, for himself.
Of course the Penthesilea episode also happens.
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:05 pm

Just being pedantic, sorry :wink:

But it was Agamemnon who demanded Briseis from Achilles :)
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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:Just being pedantic, sorry :wink:

But it was Agamemnon who demanded Briseis from Achilles :)

Of course, sorry. Don't know why I mixed that up.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:19 am

So he was bi! PMSL :lol:
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Postby pip » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:36 am

The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.
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Postby BaldJean » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:17 am

pip wrote:The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.

I am not trying to fit them into such concepts at all. I am an historian (well, at least I have a degree in historyy, even if I don't work in that field) and I specialized in ancient, so I am very well aware of what you are saying.
The ancient Greek, by the way, had a very rich sexual vocabulaty; the names for all kinds of "perversions" (mark the quote signs) are all Greek - algolagnia, dacryphilia, phoinikizein, podophilia, even nasophilia - just think of something, and they had a name for it.
"Phoinikizein" is a very interesting term, by the way. Literally it means "the way the Phoenicians do it" and thus appears to have been used as a derogatory term. My spouse Friede wrote a short story in which one of the characters refers to that sexual practice as "phony kissin' ", which I consider to be great wordplay.
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Postby pip » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:43 am

BaldJean wrote:
pip wrote:The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.

I am not trying to fit them into such concepts at all. I am an historian (well, at least I have a degree in historyy, even if I don't work in that field) and I specialized in ancient, so I am very well aware of what you are saying.
The ancient Greek, by the way, had a very rich sexual vocabulaty; the names for all kinds of "perversions" (mark the uoter signs) are all Greek - algolagnia, dacryphilia, phoinikizein, podophilia, even nasophilia - just think of something, and they had a name for it.
"Phoinikizein" is a very interesting term, by the way. Literally it means "the way the Phoenicians do it" and thus appears to have been used as a derogatory term. My spouse Friede wrote a short story in which one of the characters refers to that sexual practice as "phony kissin' ", which I consider to be great wordplay.


They were an interesting group of people in all there ways. I had the fun of a degree in Classics as well and the approach to life would definitely open your eyes . :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:03 pm

What is it they say? There are only 7 stories and the Greeks had them all covered. :P

All art is pointless and regurgitated :lol:
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Postby BaldFriede » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:37 pm

... reading "The Truth". I liked the outside view of the watch, which we also get in "Monstrous Regiment". Just loved how William de Worde "figured out" who the werewolf is. "We don't often talk about Corporal Nobbs's species. (...) I would deem it a small favour if you would take the same appproach". That's a really good one.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:43 pm

I like The Truth a lot. :)
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Postby Turtles4Ever » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:05 pm

..... re-reading I Shall Wear Midnight. Lovely book, it seemed more 'cohesive' to me the second time around.

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Postby deldaisy » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:55 pm

I don't often read books a second time... but I find that DW books are well worth a second read... there is so much to read into... so much refers to other books.. and its always so enjoyable coming across a pun or joke that made me laugh the first time.

Sometimes I find that reading one book a second time can prompt me to read another book again too, because of the cross references.

One day I shall start from the beginning and read them all from the first to the last... IN ORDER.
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Postby The Mad Collector » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:04 pm

I'm currently working through the whole series but backwards :) I've got back as far as The Truth and know that eventually Sam Vimes will just be another drunk. It gives a whole new and somewhat odd view of the series :)
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One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:04 pm

A second, third and many more reads. The DW books are infinitely re-readable. :D
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Postby deldaisy » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:41 pm

The Mad Collector wrote:I'm currently working through the whole series but backwards :) I've got back as far as The Truth and know that eventually Sam Vimes will just be another drunk. It gives a whole new and somewhat odd view of the series :)


Oh yeah Mad... know where you are coming from hun. I play my wedding video backwards....

I back up the aisle... jump in the limo with my girlfriends and bugger off :D :wink:
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