Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

[Tonyblack]

One of the interesting parts of this book (to me) was Nobby and Fred Colon. They've really gelled into a double act in this book. We see it again, particularly in Thud!

Nobby comes across as a lot more intelligent than Fred in that he seems to set Fred up with his questions and one wonders if he's doing it on purpose. Fred, of course, tries to act superior and just makes himself look even more stupid and bigoted than before.

[raisindot]

Colon definitely seems to be at his worst here. In the previous books he was more of a semi-competent desk jockey but mostly inoffensive.

Here he's simply little more than a xenophobic, cowardly, stupid fool. Nobby definitely is winding him up, since he really is much smarter than Colon, although this is a relative comparison.

But at least here Colon and Nobby's comedy team actually contributes to the resolution of the plot. In most of the other books they play little more than Rosencranz and Guildenstern surrogates, interrupting the main narrative with a bit of largely irrelevant comic relief.

J-I-B

[Tonyblack]

If Fred Colon was a 21st Century American, he'd watch Fox News. If he were a Brit he'd watch Sky and read the Daily Mail.

[raisindot]

If Fred Colon was a 21st Century American, he'd watch Fox News. If he were a Brit he'd watch Sky and read the Daily Mail.

Frankly, I think most FOX Spews viewers need to have a Colonoscopy.

J-I-B

[Tonyblack]

As from this post, I will not use the words Fox News. I'll either call it Focks News or Faux News.

[raisindot]

Well, they've just released a biopic about them.

It's called Big Fockers.

J-I-B

[poohcarrot]

55 seconds of Faux news at its best!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEsY-wnc ... re=related

[Tonyblack]

Getting back to Jingo.

What were the two sides fighting for? Was it really Leshp, or something else?

[Jan Van Quirm]

Turf war - just because it's there in an open fishing ground.

If we're doing roundworld analogies then possibly the Cod War's the best one as they're fighting over something that's not fixed except transiently. Leshp like the fish in unratified Icelandic territorial waters is not a permanent feature, in that it wasn't always there and, unknown to the fishermen or anyone else except for Leonard, is not sticking around this time either.

[poohcarrot]

Are you sure the Klatchians hadn't already decided to invade A-M before Leshp rose?

[Tonyblack]

I certainly think this might have been an excuse on both sides to have a go at each other.

The Klatchians seem to have been a loosely connected bunch of tribes that probably didn't have the power to attack A-M individually. The prince was trying to unite them, partly to attack a common enemy and partly to increase his own power.

[Jan Van Quirm]

The Klatchians were planning to kill/attack Cadrem's brother anyway (it wouldn't have mattered too much whether he died or not TBH, it just needed the attempt to happen) and Leshp was certainly fortuitous in that it gave A-M more of a reason to be on the defensive at that point even if Leshp wasn't in the equation.

The island's still a turf/asset war element which makes a great seasoning on top of Cadrem's more 'noble' excuse for uniting the tribes which would turn expansionist anyway. For A-M with Vetinari using his head as ususal it's a waste of time as Lord Rust's an idiot and would escalate with any old excuse.

[Quatermass]

Notice, too, how neither side really has a standing army. A-M had a bunch of mercenaries, and the tribes of Klatch are fragmented.

I also detect a certain amount of criticism about how politicians manipulate the lives of soldiers, or more correctly, sacrifice them. I certainly got that impression from the A-M Miles Gloriousus, Lord Rust, and I don't doubt that the Klatchian leaders would be all too willing to sacrifice their own men to glorious casualties, although they seem a little more inclined to strategic thinking.

Actually, on a bit of a tangent here, but themes about soldiers being sacrificed and diddled over by pollies seems to run throughout fiction. I mean, look at the Metal Gear series. In fact, I've just noticed a number of similarities between Metal Gear and Jingo. They both take a dim view of political sacrifice of the soldier. They both emphasize tactics over rushing in, guns blazing or swords flashing. And they both shoot down jingoistic patriotic BS, especially in later installments where Metal Gear is concerned. I mean, the villains, overall, of the Metal Gear saga are called 'the Patriots'. And they both have a ditzy genius in denial that he is creating things that are capable of mass destruction.

And there's another tangent. I wonder if Leonard of Quirm would be able to build the Discworld equivalent of a Metal Gear, and if so, what would he call it with his usual skill? The Two-Legged Walking Catapult Thing?

Sorry. My mind goes to some weird places and makes some weird connections.

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Although I liked it when I first read it I now find Jingo rather disappointing - I feel Pratchett could have made a stronger condemnation of war, not just that it's futile and what idiots like Rust resort to but that its such a waste of life,

to me the scenes of battle are too jolly, especially as recounted by the butler

[MongoGutman]

I do have some issues with the book, though. I really don't like Fred Colon at all in Jingo. I understand the necessity of having a character who engages in mindless racism, jingoism and xenophobia but having it be Fred felt very forced to me. I would probably rather a new character or even a minor recurring character (Quirke, maybe?) be the one taking that path.

I think that would have been wrong, cometh the hour cometh the man, and Fred was the man that... err... cometh. Quirke could have been the man, but if it had been Quirke it would have been because he's a nasty and vicious piece of work full of bile and hate. Fred may be ignorant and stupid but he's basically a nice guyat heart and yet he is programmed by his enviroment to echo the currents of the day.