Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

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Postby poohcarrot » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:58 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote::shock:

:lol: oh - Kirby paperback! :roll:

Like Terry says (and did) you don't have to like football to write about it. Image

He does (and did), he doesn't, but I do. :D
Therefore my take is going to be different from yours. :P
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:47 pm

Thought this might come in useful for this thread after briefly talking about other instances of lost cities on the Disc

Image

The numbered locations on the Circle Sea region are as follows (clockwise from our NW into the sea itself) -

8 - Para Mountain } Moving Pictures
14 - Holy Wood }
7 - Jowser Cove
15 - Chirm
19 - Kom
21 - N'Kouf
3 - Ephebe
2 - Djelibeybi
1 - Tsort
6 - Erebos
5 - Papylos
4 - Crinix

also - just 'cos it's so funny 13 - Heliodeliphilodelphiboschromenos :lol:

As a tangential point, but still on Leshp in general and it's place in Circle Sea cultural importance (as a Mediterranean style cradle of civilisation :P ) and of Holy Wood and it's sunken 'city' (which really is too close to Leshp for co-incidence), I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that a retro mage-war Discworld Atlantis/Indiana Jones-style story is waiting to happen if Terry is spared long enough to get around to it? 8)

The entire Circle Sea is too super-volcanic caldera-like for comfort in fact. :twisted:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:52 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote::shock:

:lol: oh - Kirby paperback! :roll:

Like Terry says (and did) you don't have to like football to write about it. Image

He does (and did), he doesn't, but I do. :D
Therefore my take is going to be different from yours. :P

And long may we disagree so entertainingly smartypants Image

Actually - Image credit to pooh for the map too (that's my old map from the turtle table which pooh sent me a beautiful unfaded replacement for last year)
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Postby Danny B » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:17 pm

Didn't Thief of Time act as a crystallising moment in DW? I'm fairly sure (although I'm willing to be corrected) I read somewhere that continuity errors pre ToT can be chalked up to the History Monks cobbling the timeline back together as best they can, but everything post ToT can considered the 'true' state of Discworld reality as it currently stands... If I'm remembering correctly, the fact that post-UA football exists in Jingo can be chalked up to the "Trousers of Time" effect. As I said earlier, my memory may be playing tricks on me. :?

Speaking of alternate timelines, the scenes where Vimes' Dis-Organiser gets itself caught in the wrong reality make for genuinely chilling reading. For me, Jingo is where the Watch stories begin to truly find their voice, rather than being gentle parodies of swashbucklers, murder mysteries or police procedurals. After Jingo, the Watch stories are driven more by the characters than the plot. The Vimes who thunders from the page in The Fifth Elephant, Night Watch and Thud! really comes into focus in Jingo.

I do have some issues with the book, though. I really don't like Fred Colon at all in Jingo. I understand the necessity of having a character who engages in mindless racism, jingoism and xenophobia but having it be Fred felt very forced to me. I would probably rather a new character or even a minor recurring character (Quirke, maybe?) be the one taking that path.
Carpe carpio*

* Correction - Carpio diem
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:48 pm

Got to agree on the Death Roll that the Disorganiser reads. That was powerful writing and genuinely chilling. :shock:
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Postby swreader » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:46 am

Jingo is one of my favorite books, although I think it has some odd weaknesses.(more about them in later posts) I think that my reason for rating it so highly is that it's the first book I read which showed Terry's ability as a satirist in revealing the absolute stupidity of racism and wars in general by making the protagonists of the War Parties really laughable--totally stupid characters. Lord Rust's pompous "seizing" of power (and letting Vetinari work behind the scenes) reminded me so much of G. Bush's plans and actions in Iraq that I wondered if Terry had become prescient. And Prince Cadram's callous, self-aggrandizing plot to have his brother killed in AM so that he can get the tribes together to start a war certainly has all sorts of parallels in round world - from the US to the USSR. There's nothing that unites a "country" like a "good war".

This is one of the few books in which I thought Colon and Nobby functioned beautifully as humorous characters. Their analysis of who shot at Khfurah is hilariously characteristic of their notion of police work (we know it was a Klatcian because there's the sand from his shoes). And the scenes in Klatch, especially Nobby with the ladies at the well, is the first time I really saw Nobby as a human being--a rather odd one, but "there's not so queer as folks."

There is some powerful writing in this book. I agree with Tony that the roll of deaths of the Watch members by the dis-organizer (who is in the pocket of the "wrong" Vimes from the trousers of time) is chilling. And yet, Terry puts it (as a gadget) in it's place in it's conversation with DEATH, and it's eventual home with the shark.

Jeff, I agree with most of what you said. But contrary to all of you--I think that this IS NOT A BOOK ABOUT FOOTBALL! And I suppose that the games reference to the WW 1 game that Tony mentions is probably deliberate--not because it's football, but because it makes clear (as Terry does throughout the book) that in fact there's very little difference between the average Klatchian and the average Ank-Morporkian. But I think the real reason for the game is that Terry needs to give Carrot something to do--and he's got two armies who are "poised to fight." So, a football GAME, rather than a war allows him to keep the satiric focus where it should be -- on the people who are responsible for the wars rather than the victims (soldiers).

And of course the final coup is pulled off by Vetinari--who whips the "carpet" out from under the Klatchian leader by setting up a surrender which can only be ratified on a piece of land that Vetinari knows will not be there in four days. He has dealt with "the big picture" in a way that neither Vimes nor Ahmed could do. And he has fought a war at almost no cost. As Vetinari tells Vimes:
"And you say bought and sold? All right. But not, I think, needlessly spent." The Patrician flashed one of those sharp, fleeting little smiles to say that something that wasn't very funny had nevertheless amused him. "Veni, vici . . . Vetinari."
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Postby Quatermass » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:30 am

"What have you been doing since you stole that antique TARDIS of yours, since you first landed on Skaro? Shouting 'Look at me!!! I'm not fighting a war!', while you battle the Daleks all the way through space and time."

-the Master
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Postby raisindot » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:35 pm

Another interesting aspect of Jingo is that it is the only book in which the Patrician actually physically saves Vimes' life and his soul.

Perhaps this is a kind of karmic payback, as in the preceding three guards books, Vimes either saves Vetinari's life or solves a challenge that threatens Vetinari's patricianship. And in the books that follow, Vimes actions ultimately consciously or unconsciously help Vetinari remain patrician (The Truth), pave the way for his ascension of patricianhood (Night Watch) or achieve his political and economic goals (The Fifth Elephant, Thud)

In Jingo, however, Vetinari steps in at the last minute and prevents Vimes from giving in to The Beast. We never really know whether Vimes would have murdered the Prince in cold blood if Vetinari hadn't disarmed him. But we do know what would have happened to Vimes if he had followed through.
It's a great bit of dramatic writing by Pterry, and adds yet another shade to the symbiotic relationship between the two men.

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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:43 pm

raisindot wrote:Another interesting aspect of Jingo is that it is the only book in which the Patrician actually physically saves Vimes' life and his soul.
J-I-B

In Night Watch Vetinari physically saves Vimes' life twice! (I think :? )
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:49 pm

I've probably said this before, but I'll say it again - I thought Jingo was about the futility of the Falklands war.
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:52 pm

Bouncy Castle wrote:I've probably said this before, but I'll say it again - I thought Jingo was about the futility of the Falklands war.
And the Cod War - and, I think, the idea of starting a war to win an election - Thatcher anyone? :)
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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:53 pm

Thatcher? spit! :twisted:
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:32 pm

And the War of Jenkins' Ear :wink:

The name of the seacaptain in Jingo was Jenkins wasn't it? I think that's a reference to that war
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Postby raisindot » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:14 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
raisindot wrote:Another interesting aspect of Jingo is that it is the only book in which the Patrician actually physically saves Vimes' life and his soul.
J-I-B

In Night Watch Vetinari physically saves Vimes' life twice! (I think :? )


[Spoiler alert]

Oh yeah. I was thinking in terms of Vimes and Vetinari consciously making a decision to save each other and instantly recognizing their mutual debt. In Night Watch, the young Vetinari doesn't know that the Keel whose life he saves at the beginning is really future-Vimes and Vimes-as-Keel doesn't know who shot his would-be assassin.

However, the truth of this does come in the last scene in the cemetery. So, in the end, Vimes does finally realize that he owes his life to the young Vetinari, while Vetinari realizes he owes his patricianship to Vimes as Keel. Each acknowledges his debt to the other in different ways.

Bringing it back to Jingo, it's interesting to contrast how Vetinari intervenes during Vimes's moment of doubt, but at the end of Night Watch he refrains from getting involved in Vimes's fight with Carcer, because he wants to see if Vimes has truly mastered The Beast on his own.

Again, comparing the took books shows how Pterry is able to add layers of psychological and literary complexity to these characters as the series continues. How many authors are able to do that consistently?

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Postby Who's Wee Dug » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:50 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Thatcher? spit! :twisted:
Mine would be brown and have lumps in to throw. :twisted:
He willnae tak' a drink! I think he's deid! , on the other hand though A Midgie in yir hand is worth twa up yir kilt.
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