Firefly/Serenity

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Postby Quatermass » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:23 am

Firefly? Serenity? *snort* Firefly is basically Joss Whedon ripping off Blake's 7. I mean, come on. Firefly is good and all, but Blake's 7 did it first, and in some cases, better. I mean, Mal Reynolds and his crew always seem to win the day, but did Roj Blake, Kerr Avon, and the others win time after time? Most of the time, they were barely lucky to get away with their lives.
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Postby pip » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:32 am

Do you not find that Blake 7 has aged fairly badly .
And the crew of serenity took big big Knocks along the way and end up pushed to the edge of civilisation . Not a huge victory.
Aside from anything it was just getting into a stride when cut off unlike Blake 7 with 50+ episodes to develop story threads etc.

Firefly managed to achieve a lot in terms of impact in a much shorter time scale.
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Postby Quatermass » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:07 am

pip wrote:Do you not find that Blake 7 has aged fairly badly .


In terms of production values? Of course, but then again, I've watched a lot of Doctor Who from that era. But many of the stories haven't aged too badly. I mean, which other series has the main character framed for child molestation in the very first episode?


pip wrote:And the crew of serenity took big big Knocks along the way and end up pushed to the edge of civilisation . Not a huge victory.


They're still alive (excepting Wash and Shepherd Book, which is a pity, as Jayne should have gone down the crapper), while Blake is definitely dead as a dodo, and the rest of the rebels are, in all likelihood.

pip wrote:Aside from anything it was just getting into a stride when cut off unlike Blake 7 with 50+ episodes to develop story threads etc.

Firefly managed to achieve a lot in terms of impact in a much shorter time scale.


Pfft.*

*Now with added spittle!

There are elements of Firefly that I do like, most of them relating to Summer Glau as River Tam and Nathan Fillion (he's a good actor, despite the fact that Mal is a dick), but frankly, Blake's 7 did it first, and, production values and campiness aside, often, it did it better.

Besides, does Firefly have Paul Darrow in it?

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Postby pip » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:32 am

I agree that if any character was to get killed off Jayne would have been an enjoyable choice but too easy as well.

I know this will get me kicked but i never really liked Doctor Who from any era.
Never got into it.

Blake 7 and Firefly are still too different for the kind of comparison you are making anyway.
Blake 7 did what first, Scifi :?: or Dystopic future :?: the whole reneagdes on the run thing :?:

No offence but these have been done many times before Blake 7 and will be done again.
Genres cross but your accusing Joss Whedon of cloning Blake 7 then contradicting this by stating Blake 7 did this and that unlike Firefly.
Many films and tv of the 70's are Dystopic so how many was Blake 7 ripping themes from.
Logans Run etc etc etc ...............


Both are enjoyable for there own reasons and are different in many ways .

I never liked the sort of criticism for films or books or tv based on statements along the lines of that was crap because this was better
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Postby Conforumist » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:33 am

Here's another good reason to watch it:

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Postby Quatermass » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:41 am

pip wrote:I agree that if any character was to get killed off Jayne would have been an enjoyable choice but too easy as well.

I know this will get me kicked but i never really liked Doctor Who from any era.
Never got into it.


Boot to the head. *whack*

pip wrote:Blake 7 and Firefly are still too different for the kind of comparison you are making anyway.
Blake 7 did what first, Scifi :?: or Dystopic future :?: the whole reneagdes on the run thing :?:


It did that sort of series where the main characters were not necessarily heroes, filled with moral ambiguity. I mean, Blake was a revolutionary at best, and he became more cynical and more willing to let the ends justify the means. Avon was an amoral computer hacker more than willing to go his own way (he's like Jayne, only with more brains and less muscles). Vila was a cowardly thief, Jenna a space pirate, Cally an alien terrorist, Zen an alien computer with a mind of its own, ORAC was a supercomputer with a bad attitude, Tarrant an arrogant little turd, Dayna a little too enthusiastic about weapons, and Soolin very mercenary. The most balanced of the cast was Gan, and not only was that only when his anti-murder chip wasn't on the fritz, but he got bumped off halfway through the second series.

This may sound nasty, but it made things interesting, with these guys less of a happy family and more of a dysfunctional group who found it hard to work together. Plus, they were all convicted criminals, to varying degrees of actual culpability.

Firefly is basically Blake's 7 watered down and neutered. Very few of the crew are self-interested, despite Mal being a dick. There are more happy endings. At least Blake's 7 is not afraid to make the characters lose.

Or cast non-glamourous looking males in the leads. Women were a different matter, but that was the 70s...


pip wrote:Genres cross but your accusing Joss Whedon of cloning Blake 7 then contradicting this by stating Blake 7 did this and that unlike Firefly.


I didn't say that it was a perfect clone. As I said above, many of the things Blake's 7 did differently were done right. One of them, however, was not production values. If Blake's 7 had Firefly's production values...

Well, let's just say that this trailer makes Blake's 7 look good.



pip wrote:Many films and tv of the 70's are Dystopic so how many was Blake 7 ripping themes from.
Logans Run etc etc etc ...............


Blake's 7 was conceived at about the same time as the original film of Logan's Run, but Terry Nation (the creator of Blake's 7, as well as the Daleks) had visited dystopian science fiction before. He created, probably well before its time, a fairly realistic post-apocalyptic drama called Survivors, about the world after a superflu pandemic, years before The Stand was published. And then you have similar worlds visited in Terry Nation's Doctor Who stories The Daleks, The Keys of Marinus, Genesis of the Daleks...


pip wrote:I never liked the sort of criticism for films or books or tv based on statements along the lines of that was crap because this was better


Hey, I'm an opinionated little bugger, and I detest most American science fiction (with the exceptions of Futurama, Dune, and the Vorkosiagn Saga). Unrepentantly opinionated and prejudiced. I don't mind you liking Firefly and Serenity. There is much to recommend the franchise. I just don't like it much myself, partly out of personal taste and partly because Blake's 7 pretty much did it first.

But then again, well, I suppose if it comes down to opinions, this wee quote from Blake's 7 about the matter is rather apposite:

Vila: I'm entitled to my opinion.
Avon: It is your assumption that we are all entitled to it as well that is irritating.
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Postby Quatermass » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:51 am

I would like to clarify, given the length of my previous post, that I have nothing against Firefly fans (or Browncoats, as I have heard that you are called). And while I consider Blake's 7 superior, Firefly is still amongst the best of American science fiction TV. I just don't personally find it engaging enough for me. And I have tried.
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Postby pip » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Quatermass wrote:I would like to clarify, given the length of my previous post, that I have nothing against Firefly fans (or Browncoats, as I have heard that you are called). And while I consider Blake's 7 superior, Firefly is still amongst the best of American science fiction TV. I just don't personally find it engaging enough for me. And I have tried.


No problems here with disagreement and open debate by the way so no worries that on this one thing we disagree. And i do like Blake 7 and am a big fan of a lot of the Anti-hero and dystopic stuff that came out in the 70's and 80's and even before that.
And i probably do deserve the kick on Doctor Who.
The missus is a huge fan so maybe its over exposure but hey.
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Postby Quatermass » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:18 pm

pip wrote:
Quatermass wrote:I would like to clarify, given the length of my previous post, that I have nothing against Firefly fans (or Browncoats, as I have heard that you are called). And while I consider Blake's 7 superior, Firefly is still amongst the best of American science fiction TV. I just don't personally find it engaging enough for me. And I have tried.


No problems here with disagreement and open debate by the way so no worries that on this one thing we disagree. And i do like Blake 7 and am a big fan of a lot of the Anti-hero and dystopic stuff that came out in the 70's and 80's and even before that.
And i probably do deserve the kick on Doctor Who.
The missus is a huge fan so maybe its over exposure but hey.
:D


Well, Nigel Kneale, the writer of the Quatermass serials from whom I take my username, detested Doctor Who and Blake's 7, so I don't exactly think much of the man, but his work...well, look up The Year of the Sex Olympics on Wikipedia, and see how much he predicted the advent of reality TV.

Anyhoo, I do think that it's a great pity Whedon didn't do further series of Firefly. It seems to be the curse of many a good show to be cancelled either before their time, or else when they are starting to improve.
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Postby pip » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:23 pm

sad but true
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Postby Phoenix » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:43 am

Conforumist wrote:Firefly & Serenity were both excellent. It's a real pity that the show did not even make it through 1 season. And it's the only show ever, which was canceled during the first season, yet they finished doing the rest of the episodes AND, made a movie after that.

If you like Nathan Fillion, you really need to watch "Castle"! Sorry, if I'm repeating here. I have not read all the posts. :?


Castle is pretty good, but Buffy, Slither (alien parasitic slugs turning people into zombies? Why, yes please :D :P ) and Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog are also must-see's :D


Tonight my Dad asked which was better: Firefly or Serenity. I think my brain may have melted slightly as I attempted to explain how they were equally, but differently, awesome :wink: Firefly definitely has better character depth and potential for development, but Serenity is one of my favourite comfort films. Sometimes a girl needs to know that the good space cowboys will win :P
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Postby DaveC » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:29 am

Been hard for me to stay away from this debate - I'll just say that my parents were avid Blake's 7 fans, and my dad loved the bits of Firefly he saw, I haven't really seen much so I can't say anything.
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Postby pip » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:20 am

DaveC wrote:Been hard for me to stay away from this debate - I'll just say that my parents were avid Blake's 7 fans, and my dad loved the bits of Firefly he saw, I haven't really seen much so I can't say anything.


Wondered where you were hiding on this one :lol:
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Postby Conforumist » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:22 am

I've never heard of Blake's 7; British show I guess?

Anyway; why bother to compare? Just enjoy them for what they are.

..still feeling like a newb', so I'll leave it at that.
Last edited by Conforumist on Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pip » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:25 am

Fair point.
:D
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