2012 DW Convention ~ Cripple Mr. Onion Card School

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

How do we theme the Discworld Deck? (re-read 1st post please)

Option A ~ Regional
5
14%
Option B ~ Suit associated (match character to hearts etc)
1
3%
Option C ~ Grouped by Series
13
37%
Option D ~ Ranked characters (Death = Ace)
11
31%
Option E ~ Inclusive/Random (all 54 character cards)
3
9%
Option F ~ something else? Suggest something then clever clogs!
2
6%
 
Total votes : 35

2012 DW Convention ~ Cripple Mr. Onion Card School

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:34 pm

SUIT THEMES
As you can see I've edited this so we don't have a string of related threads on various aspects and can do an integral poll on how to theme the decks from the many excellent suggestions we've had coming in.

Due to space considerations in the poll, please read the following explanations of the options first BEFORE you use your 1 vote! :wink:

    A: Regional
    Geographical/continental areas) ~ Circle Sea; Ramtops; Agatean Empire; XXXX
    OR Political axes ~ A-M (economic); Klatch (Tribal); Lancre/Uberwald/Borogravia (Horror); Ephebe/Djelibeybi/Tsort/Omnia (philosophical)

    B: Suit associated
    Examples only
    Hearts ~ k = Carrot; q = Adorabelle Dearheart?; j = Casanunda; a = Rosie Palm
    Spades ~ k = Patrician; q = Susan; j = Jonathan Teatime; a = Death
    Diamonds ~ k = Moist; q = Lily Weatherwax; j = CMOT; a = Mr. Shine
    Clubs ~ k = Cohen; q = The Low King :P ; j = Chrysoprase; a = Detritus

    C: Series Groups
    Death (Mort, Reaperman etc) = Spades; Witches (Wyrd Sisters, Wintersmith etc) = Hearts; The Watch (Guards! Guards! Nightwatch etc) = Clubs; Wizards (Colour of Magic, Unseen Academicals etc) = Diamonds

    D: Ranks
    Kings ~ Patrician; Low King; Cenobiarch (Omnia - Brutha/Vorbis); Pteppic/Ptraci
    Queens ~ of the Elves; Magrat/Witches; Lady Margolotta; The Duchess of Borogravia
    Jacks/Knights ~ Moist; Carrot; Wm de Worde; CMOT
    Aces ~ Death; Granny W; Ponder Stibbons; Patrician

    E: Inclusive/Random
    All face cards ~ 54 characters! :shock:
    Random would be a catalog of unassigned characters that for you to make your own personalised suits applied to a 'universal' template

    F: Something else
    PLEASE say what something else if you don't like any of the other suggestions.
Where I've put in specific characters it's a combination of those already put forward or my own examples - these aren't intended to be definitive and we can discuss specifics for the suit face cards after we've got the theme sorted. :D


BIG EDIT 12th March 2012 - have deleted the rest as we're further on now. Here's the template for front cards and the 'generic' back design which can also be used for you to make your own if you like! ;)

Image

Bog standard face card template - use this as the background for your design as it says and then either block out the grey line and text or delete that background layer when you've got the basic drawing down :D

Image

This is my original work and I freely allow people to use it as the back design in conjunction with the layout templates 8-)
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:59 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby raisindot » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:05 pm

I LOVE this idea!!!!!!!!


Put me down to be the official U.S. distributor of the finished product if it ever comes to that.

Do you need to pay licensing fees to do this? Bugger, don't let that get in the way of innovation.

I wish I could do the artwork, but I'm a "words and ideas" man, not an illustrator. You'd really need someone of the Kidby level to do it justice.

For the backs, I couldn't see anything other than a image of the Discworld flying through space on the back of the elephants on back of the Great Aut'ain(sp.)

I'd think Moist and Rincewind would make the best jokers, since they're both knaves.

The kings'll be controversial choices, but wouldn't you want Granny, Nanny, Magrat and perhaps Susan to be the Queens? And since Jacks are Knights, i.e., the movers and shakers and protectors, perhaps Carrot, Wm. De Worde, Ridcully and Lu-Tze?

Death would definitely be an Ace. Maybe the others are gods or personifications (like the Hogfather)?

The rest of the cards could just have images of other characters.

I'd also recommend sticking to the traditional hearts/spades/clubs/diamonds for suits, if only because people may want to use them for real games, and the last thing you want to worry about in a game of bridge is whether cabbages outrank crossbows.

:D

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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:16 pm

Spades - Watchmen
a Vimes
k Carrot
q Angua
j Nobby

Hearts - Witches
a Granny
k Nanny Ogg
q Magrat
j Tiffany

Clubs - Wizards
a Ridcully
k Ponder
q Hix
j Rincewind

Others - Diamonds
a Death
k Patrician
q Susan
j Moist
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Postby Who's Wee Dug » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:26 pm

I think Ace of Spades should be Death. :) and somewhere the Feegles enmass on one card would be good.
He willnae tak' a drink! I think he's deid! , on the other hand though A Midgie in yir hand is worth twa up yir kilt.
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Postby DaveC » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:28 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Clubs - Wizards
a Ridcully
k Ponder
q Hex
j Rincewind



personally I would swap Ridcully and Ponder - Ridcully is King, even if he isn't clever - and Ponder is an Ace in most situations.
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Postby michelanCello » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:39 pm

I think this is a great idea, and I support the "watch-wizards-witches-death" theme idea, and it should deffinitely be the traditionas suits - in the first place, that is :wink:
This is just such an amazing idea! :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:09 pm

No credit for me on this idea - it's Jane's Mr. Shine card that got us fizzing! :lol:

Image

Thanks for the feedback on the suits guys - got some good ideas coming in there, so perhaps we'll get a mini vote-off for that going next but I think there's only the ONE CANDIDATE for the Ace of Spades :wink:

Let's see how it goes with producing this - really I'm only thinking of making these templates for us to download for home use from the forum or for people to get printed locally, but we could maybe go to Transworld and see if they'd be interested in using it for promos perhaps, or (as their usual answer is generally no dosh to spare) we could look into marketing it perhaps. At that point however it wouldn't really be 'ours' anymore and there'd be licences and other mucky stuff to get around if we did this commercially, even if it's donated original artwork (as in original to us - we couldn't use anything of Paul's and Kemar's) - 'sharing's ' permissible under the fair use clause of the copyright acts, even if we used the official artists, but as soon as you're selling it or money's exchanging hands, then the publishers and Terry's sales team'll be muscling in for a cut :roll:
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Postby Jane » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:05 pm

I agree with Jan; we should just make these for home entertainment, because it saves a lot of complications. If DW is copyrighted, doesn't that make profiting from fanart illegal?

Anywho, it seems like this idea has taken off, even though I originally meant for it to be a "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if..." moment. If we end up getting serious about it, I'll be happy to do some art when Dec 10 starts, because that's when my Christmas holiday begins.
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Postby Who's Wee Dug » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:27 pm

It would need to be cleared by Terry even if it was only for members use on the forum, at the Mo it is only a discussion.
He willnae tak' a drink! I think he's deid! , on the other hand though A Midgie in yir hand is worth twa up yir kilt.
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Postby michelanCello » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:37 pm

Who's Wee Dug wrote:It would need to be cleared by Terry even if it was only for members use on the forum, at the Mo it is only a discussion.


I agree... you can always ask for permission, even if it's not necessary.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:58 pm

Jane wrote:Anywho, it seems like this idea has taken off, even though I originally meant for it to be a "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if..." moment. If we end up getting serious about it, I'll be happy to do some art when Dec 10 starts, because that's when my Christmas holiday begins.

:D That sounds fine Jane - it might be you'll have some of the characters in your 'back catalogue' as it were :wink: and if Cheery looks in during the holiday maybe she'll help out and BP and some more of the arty types so perhaps the workload could be shared around? :wink:

If there's no money changing hands and it's kept as a fan project then technically we don't need permission but it's always polite to ask anyway (I use Paul Kidby artwork on DreamWorlds and he was fine about it provided we don't flog it, as it's free advertising as it were. So - line of least resistance I'll run it by Lyndsey at Transworld (the PR lady) and the only thing I think they'll worry about is us publishing an online print template actually on site for download as anyone could use it.

That's easy enough to get around by not posting the final templates, but have them available via PM (I can host them on one of my sites with a dedicated and unpublished link), which I think will satisfy copyright considerations and the rest of the artwork can be shared as usual on the forums :wink: :D
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Postby raisindot » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:11 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:If there's no money changing hands and it's kept as a fan project then technically we don't need permission but it's always polite to ask anyway (I use Paul Kidby artwork on DreamWorlds and he was fine about it provided we don't flog it, as it's free advertising as it were. So - line of least resistance I'll run it by Lyndsey at Transworld (the PR lady) and the only thing I think they'll worry about is us publishing an online print template actually on site for download as anyone could use it.

That's easy enough to get around by not posting the final templates, but have them available via PM (I can host them on one of my sites with a dedicated and unpublished link), which I think will satisfy copyright considerations and the rest of the artwork can be shared as usual on the forums :wink: :D


You obviously know more about the British copyright rules than I do, but in the U.S. any use of copyrighted materials and ideas for any purpose would be considered a violation of U.S. copyright law if it were made available for use by the public (i.e., anyone besides yourself) for any purpose without written permission from the copyrightholder and proper royalty/licensing agreements. (I know this from experience, as I was once able to successfully shut down a scumbag who used some of my copyrighted content without authorization or proper royalty payments).

Even with the final templates only available via PM, what happens if someone sends them on to someone else who creates decks of cards and starts selling them? Both the seller and the creator of the templates will be on the legal hook for unauthorized commercial use of copyrighted material. At least, that would happen in the U.S. Not sure about the UK.

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:30 pm

It's tricky, but the 'fair use' clause is something that's regularly used over 'share' activities on forums and blog sites and the clincher is always whether there's money being made and, sometimes where there's a bandwidth issue - which is why hotlinking's a real no-no by and large.

What you do 'within the community' under the fair use umbrella isn't necessarily legal, but a blind eye is turned if it's done without intent to harm or profit from material taken without permission or notification to the original source. So that's where there have been cases with things like the Encyclopedia of Harry Potterwhich had to be cough up for licences/royalties to JKR because they were patently sourced largely from her books and the films and could not claim 'fair use' if they published without properly acknowledging and getting licences from her and her publishers/producers.

This is not like that because Jane and any other artist who contributes will be using their own works and inspiration and therefore not taking anything 'owned' from the various movies, or the books even, so long as we're not making money out of it.

Your point about someone else potentially using it without our permission is a worry, but what you do there is something like THIS - see bottom right where I've asserted my own copyright and disclaimer, which effectively means I can turn around and say to the Tolkien Estate - that is my own original work (yes inspired by The Hobbit but not copied from anyone or anything outside of my imagination) that was produced for a non-profit-making site and I marked the image so anyone taking it would know it was not to be used for commercial purposes. Whether this would stand up in a court of law is another matter, but it would only get there if someone somewhere was making more than the odd bit of cash with it on the sly... :wink:

But checking this in with Lyndsey first will be the sensible thing once we're ready to apply the art to the templates and hopefully won't be seen as anything other than a 'sharing' of artwork for our own amusement. Up to that point we're only doing what we always do in the Discworld Art thread, just with more purpose than usual :lol:

What might be a stumbling block is people getting this done by a print shop perhaps - there's a possibility that the template files could be used by unauthorised persons - so not a member of this forum and not as a one off print. Again, if people want to print the templates off at home for personal use, then there's no money changing hands at all - so anyone who wants them must promise faithfully they're not going to pay anyone else to print them and aren't going to slap it on Ebay or on somewhere like Zazzle or CafePress for commission etc... :P

We're just having communal fun here for now and if Transworld are OK with us playing with this without any distribution beyond the forum and with nothing to download in the public arena (or alternatively not on the web at all and I email the template files to people who want them so it's off the internet altogether). If Transworld should be interested in this being published commerically then that's different again and I suppose if that was the case then we just handover the lot and let them do it - after negotiating some kind of deal for use of our combined ingenuity (well Jane's anyway :P ) as makers :wink:
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Postby deldaisy » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:56 pm

Jan said:
fair use umbrella isn't necessarily legal, but a blind eye is turned

I was just scimming all the copyright stuff and this opped out at me and I thought.... OHhhhhhhh yes! Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye!

Raisindot: The idea of the classic Great A'Tuin on the backs of the cards is perfect.

Someone or everyone: Call me oldfashioned but I would think Kings have to be male types. I mean WE know about the witches, but it would have to be a deck a non-discworld person would be able to play with too immediately without a full explanation about the characters and WHY a king is a woman.

And yes... the traditional clubs, spades, diamonds and hearts.
clubs (trolls... get it? :wink: ), spades (dwarves... cause they DIG :wink: ). There are SO many discworld characters I think that the individual cards 2 to 10 could have characters too. (10 would have to be a hourde of Freegles).

At the moment lets just put the copyright issue aside and have fun with the cards themselves (names to cards).... because without that we have nothing. I know some of you could spot a pubic hair in a Big Mac at 200 paces but lets not get toooooooooo pedantic about rules. Just throw it out there.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:59 pm

deldaisy wrote: Call me oldfashioned but I would think Kings have to be male types.
I know some of you could spot a pubic hair in a Big Mac at 200 paces but lets not get toooooooooo pedantic about rules. Just throw it out there.

Who's being pedantic about the rules now? :lol:
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