Carrot - Love Him or Hate Him?

[chris.ph]

i like the character you can bounce other people off him and make the plotlines more interesting

[Tonyblack]

I started to write this and then a friend called around and I see lots of people have posted since.

---------------------------

Ok maybe I should clarify. Do I hate Carrot the person? No I don't. It would be hard to hate someone who is nice all the time.

Do I hate Carrot the invention of Terry? Yes I do. Bear with me and I'll try to explain.

When Terry first created Carrot Ironfoundersson for Guards! Guards! he was a really good invention. I've mentioned this elsewhere on the board. He allowed the reader to see Ankh-Morpork through the eyes of an outsider. G!G! was really the first book to be set in AM after the first two. Yes parts of Equal Rites and Sourcery were set there, but it was more incidental.

So Terry starts to really develop the city in G!G! and he cleverly uses Carrot as a tool for us to explore the city. The fact that Carrot literally likes to explore the city is also used in some of the later books and again he's useful for that purpose. And yes, Carrot is (in G!G!) a wake up call for Vimes. But so is the fact that his city is being attacked by a dragon and so is the fact that he meets Lady Sybil who sees the good man he really is.

But then we had Men at Arms and we get this thing about Carrot being the rightful king (it was hinted at in G!G!). Well so what? Terry never does anything with it and I don't believe he ever will. So in that respect that storyline is a dead end.

And then Terry made him less simple and more honest. And that makes him - well it makes him difficult to write. We more or less know how Carrot will react in a situation and that makes him dull.

Other members of the Watch have developed over the course of the books, but Carrot hasn't apart from the sudden very big change in the first two Watch books. Even Fred Colon has developed - Nobby certainly has.

Someone commented that Terry doesn't use Carrot very much these days. Well, in my opinion that's because he's just too dull and predictable. All the main characters set off for Koom Valley in Thud! except Carrot.

And where's the story about Carrot and Angua going? Angua has delevoped incredibly from Men At Arms. It's obvious that Terry likes writing for her because she's one of the few characters that he writes from inside her head. He does the same with Vimes and Tiffany, but very few others. Angua is full of character flaws and that's good for a writer.

How come they've never got married? Carrot, we are told is a very moral person who thinks everything should be done properly - yet there's no sign of them getting hitched. I think that is more because Terry can't decide what the hell to do with Carrot.

And this is something that I've noticed with Terry - he does it with Moist as well - just because the writer tells you that "everyone likes Carrot" doesn't mean that the reader has got to like him.

I'll close my rant here by saying that Carrot is a literary dead end that I think Terry created and now doesn't know what to do with. I'd quite like to see him killed off actually - now that would be a good way to make his character interesting.

[mspanners]

Dead end?

Potential King, got a Werewolf Girlfriend and is a Human raised as a Dwarf....... if you can not write a story based around the Man with all these credentials then you must be a vegetable!

He has been in space and met the Gods too.........

The problem with Carrot is that He has been marginalised along with the rest of the Watch, having literary cameo parts in the later books, I hope Terry manages another Watch book in the future.

[Tonyblack]

Yep I stand by my comments. But let's see what Terry does. With Unseen Academicals coming out later this year, one would imagine that Carrot might play a part in that. We'll see.

[Tonyblack]

Dead end?

Just to clarify - I said the story of Carrot being the righful king was a dead end. It's never going to happen as Carrot will never take up the post - that's been made perfectly clear.

So it's a dead end if the story is never expanded upon.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Just to clarify - I said the story of Carrot being the righful king was a dead end. It's never going to happen as Carrot will never take up the post - that's been made perfectly clear.

So it's a dead end if the story is never expanded upon.

What's more in Men at Arms Carrot more or less said that to Vetinari - he'll be made to stick to the decision...

[mspanners]

I thought at the end of men at arms Carrot held on to the evidence collected by Edward and put it in a safe place, Vetinari knew this.

Vetinari took Carrot to inspect the old throne and talked about politics, Carrot indicting that there may one day be the need for a king.

I got the impression from the book that Terry left the door open for the return of a king.

This is how I would set Carrot on the throne......

First I would have Vetinari either become so ill He had to step down or die and thus a power play for the patricanship starts with the guilds fighting for the right to rule the city.

This leads to civil war and Vimes is approached and asked to take up the post of Patrician but refuses on two grounds. Firstly He dose not agree with the way the patricanship is so powerful and is open to abuse and secondly He fears for the safety of young Sam and Sybil, they could be used as pawns in a power struggle .

Vimes approaches Carrot, who just about everyone in the city knows is the rightful King, and asks Him to take up the throne and reunite the city states....... but carrot is not agreeable to the idea.

At the same time Klatch and Überwald are both watching the city falling apart and start to amass armies on their boarders to annex the city as neither of the two can afford to allow such a prize to fall into the others hands.

Vimes and some of the watch infiltrate these countries and gather evidence of the impending assault.

They return and present the evidence to Carrot who they convince to take up the Kingship to reunite the city under one banner.

Vimes wants some controls in place as insists that a parliament be set up to counter any Royal excesses even though He trusts Carrot to rule wisely.

Carrot is crowned, somewhat reluctantly, but klatch has already made a move to invade, so carrot marries Angua who is as near to being a royalty that Überwald has and thus seals a bond between Überwald and the city.

This means that if Klatch go ahead and overrun the country they will put them self in a position where they have insulted Überwald and put them at war, so klatch retreats back to its boarders and Überwald and klatch withdraw their forces and the status quo is returned.

Then Vetinari either dies and comes back as a zombie or it turns out He was a vampire all along, He is offered the place in parliament as permanent Prime Minister and accepts the post.

The city is now run on a two tire system, Royal blood and selected ministers from the guilds.

There is no voting for the masses, the ministers are elected in house by the guilds.


A follow on book could have its basis set around carrot and angua raising a family.......

One of who is a Male werewolf and next in line to the throne, one a Female Human who is Third in line to the throne and finally and one a Dog who is Second in line to the Throne.

You could have all sorts of fun and infighting politically.

Will the city accept a Werewolf King, if not how will Überwald react to such a situation... or would a Dog ever be accepted as King, if so the I see a post for Gaspode as interpreter to the King....... or will the crown go to the Female line even though there are Male heirs alive and kicking..... you could do so much with a situation like this.

How do Carrot and Angua cope raising a mixed family, how do the young ones get on at school.......... and so on.

Crazy......

Or maybe Carrot is not the next King and was just a child belonging to one of the servants from the wagon train that was ambushed and the line died out at Copperhead.......!

[Dotsie]

I thought at the end of men at arms Carrot held on to the evidence collected by Edward and put it in a safe place, Vetinari knew this.

But didn't it get buried with Cuddy? I can't see it reappearing!

I agree with Tony. Carrot will never be King. He was just keeping Vetinari on his toes But I don't think Carrot is dull & uninteresting - I think he would be if Terry used him again though. Which is why he doesn't.

[Parkstee]

I thought at the end of men at arms Carrot held on to the evidence collected by Edward and put it in a safe place, Vetinari knew this.

Vetinari took Carrot to inspect the old throne and talked about politics, Carrot indicting that there may one day be the need for a king.

I got the impression from the book that Terry left the door open for the return of a king.

This is how I would set Carrot on the throne......

First I would have Vetinari either become so ill He had to step down or die and thus a power play for the patricanship starts with the guilds fighting for the right to rule the city.

This leads to civil war and Vimes is approached and asked to take up the post of Patrician but refuses on two grounds. Firstly He dose not agree with the way the patricanship is so powerful and is open to abuse and secondly He fears for the safety of young Sam and Sybil, they could be used as pawns in a power struggle .

Vimes approaches Carrot, who just about everyone in the city knows is the rightful King, and asks Him to take up the throne and reunite the city states....... but carrot is not agreeable to the idea.

At the same time Klatch and Überwald are both watching the city falling apart and start to amass armies on their boarders to annex the city as neither of the two can afford to allow such a prize to fall into the others hands.

Vimes and some of the watch infiltrate these countries and gather evidence of the impending assault.

They return and present the evidence to Carrot who they convince to take up the Kingship to reunite the city under one banner.

Vimes wants some controls in place as insists that a parliament be set up to counter any Royal excesses even though He trusts Carrot to rule wisely.

Carrot is crowned, somewhat reluctantly, but klatch has already made a move to invade, so carrot marries Angua who is as near to being a royalty that Überwald has and thus seals a bond between Überwald and the city.

This means that if Klatch go ahead and overrun the country they will put them self in a position where they have insulted Überwald and put them at war, so klatch retreats back to its boarders and Überwald and klatch withdraw their forces and the status quo is returned.

Then Vetinari either dies and comes back as a zombie or it turns out He was a vampire all along, He is offered the place in parliament as permanent Prime Minister and accepts the post.

The city is now run on a two tire system, Royal blood and selected ministers from the guilds.

There is no voting for the masses, the ministers are elected in house by the guilds.


A follow on book could have its basis set around carrot and angua raising a family.......

One of who is a Male werewolf and next in line to the throne, one a Female Human who is Third in line to the throne and finally and one a Dog who is Second in line to the Throne.

You could have all sorts of fun and infighting politically.

Will the city accept a Werewolf King, if not how will Überwald react to such a situation... or would a Dog ever be accepted as King, if so the I see a post for Gaspode as interpreter to the King....... or will the crown go to the Female line even though there are Male heirs alive and kicking..... you could do so much with a situation like this.

How do Carrot and Angua cope raising a mixed family, how do the young ones get on at school.......... and so on.

Crazy......

Or maybe Carrot is not the next King and was just a child belonging to one of the servants from the wagon train that was ambushed and the line died out at Copperhead.......!

TP if your read this please right this book, it would be amazing

[Tonyblack]

TP if your read this please right this book, it would be amazing

Ah but there's the problem. Terry has said that he never reads fan fiction for the reason that if he writes something and someone then turns around and say that he pinched their idea it could cause all sorts of problems.

Given the scenario that mspanners has created above, why couldn't Carrot be a Patrician? Why would he have to be king?

Apart from anything else why of Disc would Terry want to get rid of Vetinari? Vetinari is the person who makes A-M the place that we all know and love. He's also an ingenious invention who is certainly not as 2 dimensional as Carrot.

No, sorry I can't see Carrot ever ruling the city and frankly I wouldn't want to read about such a city.

[Straw Walker]

Apart from anything else why of Disc would Terry want to get rid of Vetinari? Vetinari is the person who makes A-M the place that we all know and love. He's also an ingenious invention who is certainly not as 2 dimensional as Carrot.

I couldn't agree more Tony. Some of the best sub plots revolve around the interplay between Sam & Vetinari. They often leave you wondering who won.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Vetinari's the supreme cynic and manipulator and he always wins - but he also takes notice and respects Vimes in the manner of an early warning system or lighning rod. And perhaps sneakily admire his principles.

As Tony says - Vetinari's the reason why AM can work as it does with licenced contract killing and thieving on the one hand and the Watch on the other as peace marshalls more than cops in our round world sense. And I don't think Vetinari even 'runs' AM as such - he just keeps it all in a state of balance where the lawlessness is just manageable and and law is just flexible enough to tolerate so much criminal activity whilst preventing the greater excesses with the Guilds doing the actual policing at source...

I think And I think I do love Vetinari but he'd hate that so I'll just admire him from a distance

[mspanners]

Wouldn`t it be a boring World if everyone thought the same way!


Men At Arms spoiler and Cohen the barbarian spoiler!

You have been warned!!




Just a few points, I think In Men At Arms Cuddy had the Gonne buried with Him.

A Dwarf takes a Weapon with them in their death, i do not recall the Book/files of evidence being buried with Him.But it could be possible.Then again if Cuddy had the evidence of Carrots Royal blood buried with Him it is only a matter for Carrot to exhume the body.......

But I don't think the extra weight of the coffin was due to a book or files. It was the Gonne in Cuddy's grave.

Vetinai is one of My favorite players but I think He is a Major block in the development of story lines.

There are real parallels in our world to Vetinari. Take Yugoslavia.... Tito held this country together for a long time but when He died the place fell apart with political and racial discord. Whilst I find the unrest caused unsettling, if this were to be repeated in a Disc world novel then there are all sorts of story lines that could be written.With Vetinari in charge we all know that any problems that happen will be sorted by this person, so there is no sense of suspense...... however kill off Vetinari and the Disc's your oyster..........................

Or, as I said in my idea of a plot Vetinari could be side lined and not killed off, He could be Prime Minister.

And there are opportunities right here for a few books... will Verinari settle for a lesser position, will he try to reclaim and resurrect the post............ and so on.

Terry has killed off some of the best people in His books, I felt sad when Cuddy died in Men At Arms but it developed the story.

Cohen the barbarian and the Silver Horde too (Although, did they die, where was Death..... they got a way on Horse back....... so are they still alive? )

But Would Terry be brave enough to kill Vetinari? ..........

[Who's Wee Dug]

Carrot was really brilliant at the start, but he is still good.

[swreader]

Well of those three, I chose "I hate Carrot"-- because there wasn't an "I find him incredibly pompous, boring, and self-centered."

He didn't start out that way--as Tony said, he had useful functions in the first two AM books. And in one sense, he still serves a useful function--his existence allows Pratchett to take Vimes off to various and sundry other localities, because "Carrot can look after things."

I'm inclined to think the problem with Carrot, though is that Terry can't make up his mind what he wants to do with him--he's painted himself into almost every corner in the room, which probably explains why Carrot's character is so inconsistent and really obnoxious.

I think 5th Elephant illustrates this beautifully. Carrot, who in Jingo was happily napping while their ship was chasing down his kidnapped girlfriend/fiancee, suddenly decides when she merely leaves without explanation that he will abandon all his responsibilities to the City and will go find her. She doesn't want him there, he's something of a problem for Vimes, and the last scene shows him to be less than the sterling character Terry keeps telling us he is.

Granted, Colon & Nobby have let the Watch fall apart appallingly (but predictably) though the city has suffered no harm. As Vetinari notes, the thieves and troublemakers know that Vimes will be back, and if they've been making trouble in his absence--there will be retribution in a major way. And the way he manipulates Colon & Nobby at the end, by making them think that the mess that the Watch has degenerated into is THEIR FAULT is less than flattering. In fact, what could have been a much more interesting book, in my opinion, is spoiled because of the Carrot thead & the Colon & Nobby thread.

I think I agree with Tony (or we view Carrot in similar ways), that Terry has gotten bored with him, but is now just using him as a place keeper to allow Terry to use Vimes or other characters to deal with the questions that really interest him.

Where Tony and I part company, however, is that he continues to like Angua. I agree that she was quite interesting in the early books, but by Thud! I think she's degenerated into a whiney, dog-like character--partially because Terry is stuck with Carrot & Angua, and probably won't kill them off or send them off to deal with Uberwald.