Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:50 am

poohcarrot wrote:It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance. :lol:

In-sewer-ants :lol:

Yeah, true, but he's not into CoM so he might not have bothered to notice it there as it's so crap :twisted:
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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:12 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Jeff - did either of your parents ever sit you down and explain how you get a society started - :shock: :D Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.


Ummm, sex doesn't get society started. Sex just reproduces selfish genes. If a communal arrangement is the best arrangement for that species, then it becomes a herd or flock or society. If it isn't, a society doesn't form. Tigers, bears, and snakes are solitary creatures. They don't need societies to thrive. No one knows whether the first hominids were individualistic or in tribal groups (although it's highly likely that couples mated for life, given the long time it takes for hominid children to mature to adults)

And, in any case, nothing that you've said STILL in any way makes the case that Pterry was consciously creating a full, fleshed out depiction of AM in the earlier books. AM was a backdrop, but the stories could have taken place anywhere on the disk. AM just happened to be most suited for them.

But feel free to keep going, because I have the feeling that MM isn't going to be one of the "high volume" discussions (my goal is at least for it to pass the number of messages in the COM discussion). :D

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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:14 pm

poohcarrot wrote:The point in time where A-M starts the economic progress (that J-I*b has been going on about) is quite easy to pinpoint. :roll:
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance. :lol:


You're the first person I've ever heard who has associated "insurance" and "progress." Most people think of the idea as an oxymoron. :)

I can say this with authority because I have worked in companies that offer insurance as one of their products (thank Anoia I never had to actually be involved with this dismal field).

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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:18 pm

polythenegirl wrote:Moist is Moist. I don't know whetehr I love him or I hate him to be honest. He is definately a lovable rogue but its all in how he is portrayed in the book and the way we are told things. When you take a step back and actually look at what he has done and is continuing to do then he isn't so lovable after all. It is just another scam, another face that he hsa put on, another way that he has gotten people to put trust in him.


Polythenegirl, please free reign to get as intellectual or infantile as you wish in these forums. Quite often this can happen in the same post!

But, if you're going to claim Moist is a lovable rogue, you've got to make an argument that passes the Jan test. I'm not even going to try. Moist, like Rincewind, is either your cuppa tea or he isn't.

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Postby polythenegirl » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:45 pm

raisindot wrote:
polythenegirl wrote:Moist is Moist. I don't know whetehr I love him or I hate him to be honest. He is definately a lovable rogue but its all in how he is portrayed in the book and the way we are told things. When you take a step back and actually look at what he has done and is continuing to do then he isn't so lovable after all. It is just another scam, another face that he hsa put on, another way that he has gotten people to put trust in him.


Polythenegirl, please free reign to get as intellectual or infantile as you wish in these forums. Quite often this can happen in the same post!

But, if you're going to claim Moist is a lovable rogue, you've got to make an argument that passes the Jan test. I'm not even going to try. Moist, like Rincewind, is either your cuppa tea or he isn't.

J-I-B


Ahhh... I have no idea how I would justify it. I think its just the image I have of him to be honest.

But yes I do agree that is a very marmite character - you either love himn or you hate him

P.S. apologies for the bad spelling - one glass of wine too many and thinking quicker than I can type are to blame!
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Postby poohcarrot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:10 pm

raisindot wrote:
poohcarrot wrote:The point in time where A-M starts the economic progress (that J-I*b has been going on about) is quite easy to pinpoint. :roll:
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance. :lol:


You're the first person I've ever heard who has associated "insurance" and "progress." Most people think of the idea as an oxymoron. :)

I can say this with authority because I have worked in companies that offer insurance as one of their products (thank Anoia I never had to actually be involved with this dismal field).

J-I-B

In one of the hitch-hiker guide to the galaxy books, all the non-essential people were sent off to another planet. People like insurance salesmen, hairdressers, lawyers, newspaper editors, fashion designers etc. All the people you are classing as A-M's nouvelle middle class. :lol:
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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:24 pm

poohcarrot wrote:In one of the hitch-hiker guide to the galaxy books, all the non-essential people were sent off to another planet. People like insurance salesmen, hairdressers, lawyers, newspaper editors, fashion designers etc. All the people you are classing as A-M's nouvelle middle class. :lol:


And he didn't include writers, advertising people, and marketing teams? Shows you how out of touch he was!

An updated version of this list would have to include bankers, oil company executives, CEOs, brokers, hedge fund managers, professional bloggers and twitterers, futurists, most politicians, and nearly everyone in Hollywood and professional sports. Not because they're necessarily "non-essential," but because it'd just be nice to have them all shipped off to another planet.

:)

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:08 pm

Ah the Golgafrincham B Ark! :lol:

Jeff - if 'professions' weren't in existence then how could Doug have included them? He did have dull documentary TV producers in there and PR people, so that covers marketing and possibly could lump in anything to do with reality TV. As he was a writer of course they didn't go on any Ark at all especially seeing as how Golgafrincham culture was founded by the Circling Poets... :P

Once again - just because it's not mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't there. :roll: And trust a man on the run to quibble away at the nature of reproduction when we all know for a fact that Discworld humans (including Trolls Dwarves, Werewolves and Vampire) are all social animals. Granted Banshees possibly don't like getting together aside for breeding purposes which is possibly why they're dying out. :lol: Witches also don't necessarily thrive comunally, which is why they're mostly out in the villages which have different but still social needs as in the big cities.

But AM as a progressive society - of course it's been that way all along! :roll: Terry's been writing about it for a long time now, so of course it's changing in the same way that it builds itself on top of older AMs. They had Guilds from the outset, which you seem to reject as a 'middle class', even though they stood pretty firmly between the aristocracy and the 'grunt' workers/wage slaves aka serfs if you're wanting it to be feudal. They have a Merchants Guild, ergo they have an economy for them to exploit and merchant away at... :lol:

Societies evolve rather than 'develop'. There's a growing in phase for the technologies or industries and the more it gets organised the more sophisticated the economy becomes. Terry's worked at AM for a long time and because it's such an interesting and extremely venal place he found a very lucrative vein to exploit in the criminal quarters that need to be 'organised' and so the Thieves Guild actually works in tandem with policing for the common good. AM already had in-sewer-ants before Twoflower got there - of the protection racket kind, granted but AM soon saw the advantages of insuring for damage to buildings by fire etc - so sophistry there already right at CoM entry level. Economics places value on it's markets and so insurance is also a sign of a healthy economy to have things or people worth insuring... *shrugs* 8)

Finally there's the simple attrition of the serial writer :D Rather proud of this one - :P Terry's sort of running out of 'things' to write about now. AM as the most human, in terms of dross as well as excellence and certainly the most dynamic of his cultural creations, is now so well defined in so many ways, that he has to start drilling down into the minutiae of B Ark style trappings with bankers and taxmen (and posties I suppose, although they do serve a useful purpose at least), that he can write about from a fresh perspective and satirise because he's done all the 'big' heroic stuff like witching, wizarding (and academia) and theatre, folklore, myth and religion (theatre grouped with those 'cos these are all dependant on 'showbizzy' aspects to get bums on seats), crime and law and order, time and death,war, pestilence and famine - the indefinite messy states of life and knowledge so yeah where's he gonna go for the lesser themes that makes life mad, mundane or marvellous? AM keeps growing in terms of sophistication and so now he's looking at the less 'attractive' life support institutions in a socio-economic culture - it's just a question of maturity and expansion. AM gets what it needs and if it hasn't got it yet Vetinari finds someone who's capable of sorting it out so it gets it. That's all.

Polythenegirl - :D You've agreed with me on Moist essentially. The more you look at Moist the more superficial and self-serving he gets. He is a lovable rogue for those who see him through rose-tinted specs. Those who won't do that, and I suspect that Spike is going to be one of those if she isn't already, fail to see him as someone deserving of faith or even admiration. He loves the kudos of the fantastic feat too much and when he runs out of that he moves on to something else. In fact I think he's addicted to it in his need to walk the tightrope to shock and awe. He's just a big show-off basically. Which is why he could never do Vetinari's job 'cos he'd be bored of the effort in a week. And yeah he's a marmite man like Rincewind :lol:

Over to you J-I-B :wink: How many more posts do we need now? :twisted:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:18 pm

Ah! we're already there! :lol: 52 v 37 (so far) :P

Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:

Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go... :P
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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:51 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Ah! we're already there! :lol: 52 v 37 (so far) :P

Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:

Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go... :P


If you do that, I'm going to write 28 more messages in this topic. Note that they are not going to be particularly necessarily good messages. This is just a warning.

:twisted:

And, if we want to into related-but-off-topic pillages we should include all posts in the "Love Moist or Hate Moist" discussion that pertain to MM.

And, lastly, notice that we're already 53 in and there's been no invocation of Godwin's rule or any comparison of the Lavishes to Nazis---ooops!

:D

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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Guys, I'm overjoyed that this discussion is now on three pages, but can we try and keep the discussion to the book? :) Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted. :wink:

It occurred to me recently that Igor and Hubert messing about with the economy and not really understanding what they are doing, was somewhat like Wall Street.
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Postby Verns » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:12 pm

I haven't joined in this discussion because, to be frank, although I dutifully picked up Making Money and started reading it again, it was an effort. I wanted to get back to The Lacuna, but that's another story (boom-boom). Sadly, I gave up about a third of the way through MM and haven't finished it (The Lacuna is great, though).

I can't think of another DW book that I've found so disappointing - and, yes, I include all of the tiresome Rincewind's adventures in that statement, because they at least had some other interesting things going on.

I like Marmite and I like Moist, self-serving and venal as he most certainly is. I thought Going Postal was a terrific book, but MM is, yawn, a similar story with a similar outcome. I can't remember who said it first on this thread, but I agree that the Golem army sub-plot was a regressive step for Golems, and a disappointment after they'd achieved so much in Feet of Clay and GP. And yes, we've already had the terracotta army in Interesting Times, and the sadness of being a clown in Wyrd Sisters. I liked Mr Bent's story and hadn't guessed his secret but, truth be told, Verence got there first.

So it all felt both retrogressive and regurgitated, I'm sorry to say. And I have already vowed to myself that if Pterry writes 'Raising Taxes' I shan't buy it until it appears in the '3 for 2' paperback shelf at the bookshop.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:02 pm

Verns wrote: I have already vowed to myself that if Pterry writes 'Raising Taxes' I shan't buy it until it appears in the '3 for 2' paperback shelf at the bookshop.

Or if it's tax deductible. :lol:

Only Terry could make me buy fiction about taxation and I'd only do that so I can argue with Jeff - or Pooh :P
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Postby swreader » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:32 pm

Another weakness/problem with Making Money is the lack of a real villain. The Lavishes, as primarily represented (much too extensively) by the boringly mad Cosimo and his increasingly dull & sickening attempt to become Vetinari and by his dumb blonde bombshell sister. Cribbins threats don't work, and having Moist suddenly worry about him seems just plain odd. There is no one in this book with the stature and menace of a Reacher Gilt.

Adora Belle and her mysterious ancient golems are a dreadful mistake. She had some character as Spike in GP and what seemed a real concern about the welfare of the golems. But her character is as different in this book as is Moist's. She seems perfectly content to see the new golems treated as machines who can be used as a kind of slave, with no trace of her previous views. Terry drops in that the old golems stop working and that they don't like the new ones, but Adora Belle seems totally oblivious to that problem. She's just annoyed that they won't respond to her commands.

And the whole thing with the dead, lascivious, knowledgeable wizard as well as the Cabinet of Curiosities may be supposed to be funny, but I found them annoying and boring. I was more disturbed with Terry's use of Gladys in this book. The golems have been recognized as a kind of people in the forgoing books. They have stature and worth. To turn Gladys into a ludicrous but not funny character who is "in love" with Moist and who reads books just is embarrassing.
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Postby raisindot » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:41 am

Tonyblack wrote:Guys, I'm overjoyed that this discussion is now on three pages, but can we try and keep the discussion to the book? :) Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted. :wink:


Wow....this is about as close to hard-nosed moderating as we've ever seen from you, Tony! I feel properly chastened.

:D

But I do think the central debate of whether Pterry has created a "new" socioeconomic history of AM and which books might be part of this series is a valid one, since MM is probably the ultimate example of this, even if it's not a great book. Maybe some of the bizarre turns into prehistoric socioeconomic history take it off the chart a bit, but , heck, it's at least a bit more content-heavy than the usual load of Jan and Pooh and me zinging one-liner insults at each other.

:D

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