Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby raisindot » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:08 pm

Bouncy Castle wrote:

Pun intended? :wink:


But of course!

:)

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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:11 am

raisindot wrote:
SWreader wrote:And Jeff, your statement, "Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward," is totally unsupported by anything in the AM novels. What growing middle-class??? And there are still big money people who keep the banks from failing and keep the damage done by Reacher & Co's embezzlement etc. from causing a financial crisis. They act rather like the Fed. Reserve and the Congress with the TARP payments. But nothing of that seems to have trickled down in the real world, and it is unlikely to do so in AM


With apologies to SWreader, whose quote I appropriated from another thread but felt it more appropriate to respond to here.

Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."

In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.

And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.

Let's look at a few examples.

Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.

All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.

Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.

Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.

William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:

The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...

Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.

So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.

Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.



J-I-B :D

I completely agree with all of that (as I stated last time :roll: ), but didn't you say the exact same thing but more concisely before?

And I would argue about Moving Pictures, as that mainly didn't take place in A-M. If you're going to include MP then you'll have to include Soul Music too. And Hogfather with the department store. And Thief of Time with the chocolate shop. :P
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:35 am

Cynical? Moi? :lol:

RAISING TAXES

*The new Discworld two-word titled novel (the first word ending in -ing) featuring Moist Von Lipwig and exactly the same story line as Going Postal/Making Money* :roll:

1. Vetinari "pursuades" Moist to reform the tax system. :shock:
2. The tax office is tatty and Moist redecorates it. :shock:
3. The tax office is run by some eccentric old dude and without him, would not function. :shock:
4. There is a mysterious/magical machine in the basement. :shock:
5. The bad guy, who wants to become Patrician, employs a hired assassin to bump off other people. :shock:
6. The hired assassin is killed by one of the tax inspectors. :shock:
7. Some golems feature prominently which are at least 25,000 years old. :shock:
8. Moist saves the day by inventing some kind of paper jobbie. :shock:
9. The final showdown, which Moist wins by winging it, takes place in a big room in front of all the prominent A-M leaders. :shock:
10. The story ends with Vetinari talking about the next -ing story in the series eg; "Driving Licence". :shock:
11. Spike doesn't stop smoking, doesn't marry Moist and attempts to stab at least one person/troll/dwarf/etc in the foot with her stilleto heels. :shock:
12. There is a furry animal of some description that Moist has to save eg; a hamster. :shock:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:12 pm

poohcarrot wrote:I completely agree with all of that (as I stated last time :roll: ), but didn't you say the exact same thing but more concisely before?

And I would argue about Moving Pictures, as that mainly didn't take place in A-M. If you're going to include MP then you'll have to include Soul Music too. And Hogfather with the department store. And Thief of Time with the chocolate shop. :P


I'm sure I probably did say all these things elsewhere and far more concisely, but I forgot. I'll probably repeat them again, as I continue my inexorable slide toward becoming a babbling nincompoop. Oh, wait. too late.

Anyway, I'm not a strong advocate for including MP in the series. Not because it didn't take place in AM (it took place very close to the city, didn't it? Many of its residents--CMOT, Gaspode, Detritus, and (if I remember correctly) the Patrician were all in it), but because it really isn't about the socioeconomic progression of AM. I'd suggest that PTerry only really began thinking seriously creating a deeper socioeconomic narrative of AM (and DW in general) starting with "The Fifth Elephant."

In any case, Soul Music, Hogfather and Thief of Time would have even less of a place in this series because 1) Hogfather's and Thief of Time's events take place all over the DW, not just in AM; 2) Soul Music is in some ways a variation of the Moving Pictures genre book; and 3) SM, TT and H have ALREADY been canonized in the Death series!

:)

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:41 pm

raisindot wrote:(my bolds) Anyway, I'm not a strong advocate for including MP in the series. Not because it didn't take place in AM (it took place very close to the city, didn't it? Many of its residents--CMOT, Gaspode, Detritus, and (if I remember correctly) the Patrician were all in it), but because it really isn't about the socioeconomic progression of AM. I'd suggest that PTerry only really began thinking seriously creating a deeper socioeconomic narrative of AM (and DW in general) starting with "The Fifth Elephant."

In any case, Soul Music, Hogfather and Thief of Time would have even less of a place in this series because 1) Hogfather's and Thief of Time's events take place all over the DW, not just in AM; 2) Soul Music is in some ways a variation of the Moving Pictures genre book; and 3) SM, TT and H have ALREADY been canonized in the Death series!:)

J-I-B

What are you ON Jeff?!!!!! :shock: :lol:

Where does MP come in the ENTIRE series? It's the 10th one and it follows Guards Guards and Eric.

Colin Smythe's Discworld section wrote:THE COLOUR OF MAGIC
THE LIGHT FANTASTIC
EQUAL RITES
MORT (Curry after the Duty)
SOURCERY
WYRD SISTERS (The Dysk)
PYRAMIDS
GUARDS! GUARDS!
ERIC
MOVING PICTURES


With the possible exception of Eric (can't be bothered to look up if it started there or not) they're ALL in AM in some way, or for some of the time, and they've ALL got Death in it, but then Death's in all of them anyway, just not always 'starring'.

MP doesn't merely have Gaspode and Detritus in it - it's the first time we ever see Gaspode and Detritus becomes far more than a walk on as it's where he meets Ruby and starts to grow in character if not in sentience. Also for Trolls as a whole we have the solution to their light phobia (the lightscreen lotion) which may not be mentioned again but Trolls will function quite happily in daylight from thereon without further explanation because the problem's solved! Not to mention Detritus being able to join up with the Watch :lol:

Yes, AM has to develop and FE is the first significant book of the 'techno-industrialisation' of the city and it's consequent service sector, :wink: but so what? It's not the city it's the people who need the development, and the sophistication of leisure time is one of the signs of an emerging economy in which theatre and music are the vanguard of that 'advance'. Think of it in terms of the Roundworld. Did we have theatre and music before industrial advancement - yes we did. In fact we had them well before we learnt how to make 'stone' using fire and earth. :lol:

Civilisation advances with the Arts first and then technology. The Science of the Discworld 2 bears this out because Roundworld had no narrativum, therefore it had no real dynamism towards technology-based societies. So - far from being 'irrelevant' MP and SM are in fact vital landmarks on the path to the industrial growth of AM. :P

PS - this is me getting passionate about MP not MM :twisted:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:48 pm

Jan, as good as MP, SM, Hogfather and the early Guards books are, none of them serve as demonstrations of the advancement of AM as an economic entity. Movies and Music with Rocks come and go, and, except for a couple of occasional one-line references, disappear from the AM narrative. Hogfather really isn't about AM, and much of the action takes place outside of the city. Even Maskerade, while most of its action takes place within AM, the characters rarely venture far beyond the Opera House.

These books are character and plot focused. But they add little lasting impact to the history and economic progression of AM. I'd argue that the first book where Pterry begins to dig under the surface of AM is "Feet of Clay," because he literally digs under the surface to show the economic relationships between the golems and the people who use (and abuse) them, a theme that becomes of the key sideplots of the Moist books. Jingo begins to add flesh to AM economic/political by showing its relation to other countries in the world and demonstrating, really for the first time, Vetinari's true Machiavellian skills. And, as I've I said, TFE really takes this all a step forward by showcasing AM as the DW's center of innovation (the Clacks), global manufacturing exports (AM's dwarf craftsmen), and hard-headed diplomacy (Sam Vimes and Sibyl).

If these books weren't already canonized in the "Guards" series I'd suggest that they should be added to the "Economic" sreries as well.

From this point on, Pterry moves away from parodies and largely character-and-myth based stories and consciously works to create deep histories, traditions, and politics of the trolls, dwarfs, and humans in ways he only scratches the sufface of in earlier books.

This doesn't mean that SM, Hogather, and MP aren't great books in their own right. They are. My argument is that they were written when Pterry was more interested in either creating straight parodies (MP) or fleshing out his continuing characters (Death and Susan) than in creating Tolkienesque histories of its peoples and settings.

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 pm

:lol:

This is an 'agree to disagree' moment I think Jeff - you already said it yourself but I'll labour the point

J-I-B wrote:because it really isn't about the socioeconomic progression of AM.

socio is the reason for economics. Society demands progression - economics provides it. Part of the bonus of that economic provision is that society gets more leisure and more sophistication and because there is a better economy, what does society spend the benefits on?

Music ~ proper instruments instead of gourds, hollow tree trunks and reeds - a rationalisation of the sounds they can make with a language to record the notes - then a way to preserve the production of those notes.

Visual Arts ~ Increasingly stable mixtures to produce line and colour instead of basic earth pigments - stimulating imagination to better record dreams and movement and a means of doing this in an organised manner (flick-book animation in full colour, magic lanterns) - developing this into a method where light and colour can be captured so quickly that the hand and eye do not have to be involved at all so long as the mind can select the aesthetic as well as the functional...

How do people (including Trolls and Dwarves etc) enjoy the benefits of an advanced society with a healthy economy on a Roundworld?

Ug and Ugette 20,000BCE ~ after a successful day's hunting-gathering together Ug and Ugette decide to go to the art gallery three caves down the trail and look at the action-packed and informative New Expressionist presentation 'How we caught that sodding great Mammoth the other day' which, in the torchlight is so marvellously realised it looks like all the people are running around digging the pit trap... Then a short stroll in the moonlight down the Great Boar and Reed-pipe campfire by the lake to listen to the lastest tune and have some of that lovely fermentd berry-juice that Uggy-Ug makes and perhaps a bit of slow-dancing :P

Sharon and Kevin Now CE ~ after a frantic day sorting out e-cabling for a new Mall complex (Kevin) and the ISP support office (Sharon) meet up at the Tapas Bar and chug-a-lug a few pints of Chateau le Freak then catch the ('underground') train to catch *insert some noisy band of choice* gig down the Pig & Whistle around the corner from where their flat is - and an easy stroll back home in the moonlight.

Society may have economy and industry but they want to enjoy the benefits by being able to afford the finer things in life. The two go hand in glove, but the aesthetic leisure objectives remains constant and both feeds and improves on the practical provision that the current technology provides.

A chicken and egg situation perhaps but both require sex to exist - which is of course also a time-honoured method of 'sentient' entertainment :twisted:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:38 pm

Nice encapsulation of the relationship between society, economics and aesthetics.

I would argue that economics comes first. Societies form as a way to make economics more efficient. It's much easier for a group of families to kill and cook a bison together (and fend off attacks from lions) than it is for a single hunter to do it on his own.

Anyway, none of this in any way disproves my original argument that neither MP nor SM can any way be considered as conscious attempts to PTerry to create a socioeconomic history of AM. As I said, you never again hear of music-with-rocks clubs or moving-pictures theaters in any future DW book. They're one-trick ponies. Fun at first, but irrelevant in the long view.

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Postby Dotsie » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:43 pm

Jeff-in-Boston wrote:It's much easier for a group of families to kill and cook a bison together (and fend off attacks from lions) than it is for a single hunter to do it on his own.


A side point (which I hope is true, I heard it on the BBC), neanderthals never used art as far as we can tell. The beeb reckons this might be why they died out, if they couldn't communicate as effectively as humans did ("the bison is over there, let's go and kill it!").
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:48 pm

Okay, back to the story.

Opinion, please.

After Igor 'perfects' the Glooper, alledgedly so much so that it 100% accurately represents the economy of AM, Hubert discovers that the little tube where all the bank's gold is represented is empty. Thus, all of the gold in the vault is gone.

Question: Did the act of perfecting the Glooper at this time in the story cause the gold to disappear (thus creating a new past wherein the Lavishes all stole the gold over time with Mr. Bent as an unwitting accomplice), or did the act of perfecting the Glooper simply represent the state of the vault at that time (i.e., the gold had always been missing; the Glooper simply visualized this).

Somehow, I can't stop somehow thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle when I think about this.

Don't use what happened to the gold on the very last pages to aid in the answer, since that action was done purposely and was made possibly by Igor's mystical abilities, aided and encouraged by Herbert's ascent into diabolicality.

:)

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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:26 pm

I think the gold was already gone and the perfected glooper just revealed this, generations of Lavishes deciding that it made no difference wether the gold was in the vault or in their jewellery boxes sounds very true to form.
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:12 pm

I've been too busy to keep up with this, but I'll try and find the time to read what's been written at some stage. :)

As far as I can tell, the fact that the Glooper kept leaking water all the time was indicative that the Lavishes were helping themselves. The gold reserve in the Glooper may indeed have shown empty, as the vault was, but who was going to believe Igor and Hubert? What I want to know is what happened when the gold went back to the vault. Presumably all the gold that had been taken out had been used in various ways, including jewellery and (gods forbid) dental fillings. :shock: I assume all that disappeared.

As to GP and MM. GP had, at its heart, a story of self discovery. Moist learned that not only was he not a bad person, but that it was far more rewarding to help people than to take their gold. The letter he delivered to the grocer came as a surprise to him because he made people happy by doing his job.

Making Money is missing that voyage of discovery - Moist doesn't particularly grow, his relationship with Spike doesn't develop. Part of the charm of GP was their developing relationship. In MM, Terry even separates them to try to make the story work. But the book (to me) starts to fall to pieces when Spike returns to the city. :? I was quite enjoying it up until then.

Making Money has good ideas and some really funny bits, but as a whole it just falls flat. I actually find parts of it extremely annoying - but more on that later.
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Postby polythenegirl » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:03 pm

Wow! These discussions really do get quite intellectual!

I enjoyed the monetary and socialogical aspects of this and I thought there were some fantastic stand out scenes.

I loved the scenes with the traders and trying to get them to use the paper money and them still asking if the gold was save. Its the kind of thing I could see happening when paper money first came in to circulation in reality. In face it is almost a satirical way of looking at the British reaction to the Euro being introduce "Oooo... pretty and easy, but now where is our real money".

I liked the glooper and the way it reflected the society and where money. I actually like more time should have been spent on the character Herbert as I think the "Mad Genius" character is perfect to fit in with the Discworld and its slightly exaggerated take on reality. It's an intellect that isn't someone at the UU and I quite like it.

Moist is Moist. I don't know whetehr I love him or I hate him to be honest. He is definately a lovable rogue but its all in how he is portrayed in the book and the way we are told things. When you take a step back and actually look at what he has done and is continuing to do then he isn't so lovable after all. It is just another scam, another face that he hsa put on, another way that he has gotten people to put trust in him.

Hmmm... I'm gonna go have a think if there is anything else I want to say :)
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:15 pm

polythenegirl wrote:Wow! These discussions really do get quite intellectual!

Don't worry - it'll deteriorate into a slanging match eventually :wink: Actually this probably won't unless Jeff starts putting some proper effort into trying to convince me that not only is Moist a lovable rogue but better for AM than Vetinari :twisted:

But on the other hand let's start now... :lol:

raisindot wrote:I would argue that economics comes first. Societies form as a way to make economics more efficient. It's much easier for a group of families to kill and cook a bison together (and fend off attacks from lions) than it is for a single hunter to do it on his own...

Jeff - did either of your parents ever sit you down and explain how you get a society started - :shock: :D Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.

Dotsie - interesting point on Neanderthals, but they have not been proven to not know about art of some kind. Neanderthals have not been proven to be bad communicators (soft tissue like vocal chords tends not to fossilise too well :wink: ) and anyway, who says they had to communicate vocally? What they have been proven to be capable of is living communally and co-operatively as they more than survived during the last Ice Age in a wholly hostile environment - they could not have done that without being able to adapt and part of that would have demanded the ability to work together socially to provide food/shelter/protection etc. As for art - well again pigments at sites where their remains or tools have been found so possibly they used that ritually on their bodies or in ways that could not have been preserved.

Theatre comes in many forms - Discworld being magic got moving pictures too soon (and the Dungeon Dimensions got their last big moment on a main stage). AM already had the Dysk, which also hasn't had a mention since - but it's still on the Mappe of Ankh-Morpork (in the booklet). I still haven't read the Amazing Maurice etc, but wasn't music involved in that? Just because Terry's not writing about it, doesn't mean it's not there, just that there's no reason for it to be in that book. Possibly the Dwarf fashion industry will never be mentioned again? Do they have 'foot the ball' in ISWM? In SM Music with Rocks In was expelled when Imp/Buddy was sent off to Quirm and the chipshop and the guitar was sent back into the cosmos to find it's way to 'somewhere else'. :twisted:

Terry spends a lot of time on AM simpy because it is THE place on Discworld - always has been, always will, because it's got so much narrativum/dynamism/fiestiness/chutzpah/front it can't ever be ignored or sidelined. It already IS the centre of civilisation on the main continent of the Disc - it was in CoM, despite some competition from the Agatean Empire which was eventually shot down in Interesting Times; and also from Krull which Terry got bored with by LF. The only other place that comes close to becoming a living breathing dynamic metropolis is Genua, but that was a 'one book deal' too. The Sto Plains, Ephebe, Quirm are also-rans, or has-beens; Omnia , Uberwald and Copper Mountain have more prominence, but really mostly serve to have people who come to AM from there. Lancre - once a contender perhaps, but far too small to be a serious threat.

Terry's giving his city-state the depth it has to have to exist plausibly. Magic has very little to do with it now, aside from enabling 'magical' species to become citizens and so yes, it needs an economy because it has to have one to function now, but the economic/industrial nature is there to support the social conditions which a city AM would have. De Worde still crops up a fair bit, but that's because society needs high class gossip :P

I'll get onto the social niches/class system another time :roll:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:57 pm

The point in time where A-M starts the economic progress (that J-I*b has been going on about) is quite easy to pinpoint. :roll:
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance. :lol:
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