Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Penfold » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:15 pm

polythenegirl wrote:I enjoyed this one, though I think Going Postal intrigued me more. I'm going to start re-reading it this evening so I canm give some kind of input into this discussion. Might not be the most intelligent but i'll give it a go :D Still new here and really want to get involved.

Go ahead and get stuck in! I only rarely manage an intelligent(ish) input on these discussions and no-ones ripped my head off.......yet.

Generally I enjoyed the book but don't think it by any stretch one of the best. However, it does have a few good stand out points such as how much the value of currency is illusory and merely based on a concept of what is valuable. For example, before its usefulness in the field of electronics, gold was (and still is) deemed so valuable that the economies of entire countries and empires was based on it. However, it had no practical purposes other than to look good. I believe that he tries to explain this with the introduction of 'paper money', the disappearance of the gold in the basement having zero effect on the dollar, and the effect that the Golem Standard would have on employment and the knock on effect on the economy as a whole. Maybe lecturers could use this book as part of the Business Studies curriculum.

*Sits back and waits to have his head torn off*

Failing that, the scene with Mr. Fusspot and the clockwork 'toys' had me in hysterics! :lol:
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Postby swreader » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am

Like everyone else thus far—I have to say that Making Money is such a weak book that it could more properly be described as Counterfeiting Money. :wink: But each of us seems to have a different view of which failures are the cause of our dislike the book.

It’s true, as Jeff said, that there are some marvelous scenes—although I’m not quite sure we agree on what they are. I think that the best bit of the book is the hysterical “trial” scene, because that is about the only place that the Moist of GP, that audacious, outrageous spinner of words which change the world, almost comes back to life. And if the Moist of GP begins as a cunning rogue with a generalized contempt for society, he evolves into someone who learns to see himself more clearly and to develop something of a conscience. I suppose one could say the scene in this book is the final evolution of his moral character with his “confession” of his past misdeeds. But that doesn’t really work here, because Bent's entrance drops it into slapstick, pie-in-the-face clowning.

I am inclined to think that the major problem with the book is that is a collection of disconnected jumbled elements. In some cases individual elements show promise (for example the parallel between Hubert, Igor and the Glooper with Jeremy, Igor and the Clock}. But it is not connected to a major theme as it is in Thief of Time, and drips into nothing. Other scenes (like Bent's breakdown at the bank) show considerable promise but never go anywhere that forwards the story. Other sections (for example the Cribbins story) are a major mistake.

I have a good deal more to say about this book--and why it doesn't work, but it's late and I'll try for more tomorrow.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:28 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Mr. Fusspot's adorable


No! He's clearly a foul yappy spoilt monster of a dog
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:20 am

:lol: That's why - maybe he would have worked better as a cat! A white fluffy one maybe? :twisted:
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Postby mystmoon » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:17 am

The clockwork "toys" woul not have been as funny with a cat tho :?
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Postby raisindot » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:19 pm

mystmoon wrote:The clockwork "toys" woul not have been as funny with a cat tho :?


One might be tempted to think that PTerry's whole purpose in writing the book was just to include that one bit with Mr. Fusspot "buzzing" across the courtroom floor with his "unique toy" clenched in his mouth.

:D

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Postby Bouncy Castle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:21 pm

Love that bit. :lol: :lol:

I wonder if that bit would be left in if they made it into a movie?
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Postby pip » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:26 pm

The whole plot would fall apart without it :lol:
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:07 pm

I know, but I assume that they try to make these movies child-friendly.

Having said that, Adorabelle smoked like a chimney in GP!!
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Postby pip » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:38 pm

Bouncy Castle wrote:I know, but I assume that they try to make these movies child-friendly.

Having said that, Adorabelle smoked like a chimney in GP!!


Ah but they're not allowed show the brand.

So once they don't have Rampent Rabbit all over the side of the 'toy' we're good to go. :D
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:58 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby raisindot » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:13 pm

SWreader wrote:And Jeff, your statement, "Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward," is totally unsupported by anything in the AM novels. What growing middle-class??? And there are still big money people who keep the banks from failing and keep the damage done by Reacher & Co's embezzlement etc. from causing a financial crisis. They act rather like the Fed. Reserve and the Congress with the TARP payments. But nothing of that seems to have trickled down in the real world, and it is unlikely to do so in AM


With apologies to SWreader, whose quote I appropriated from another thread but felt it more appropriate to respond to here.

Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."

In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.

And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.

Let's look at a few examples.

Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.

All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.

Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.

Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.

William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:

The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...

Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.

So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.

Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.



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Postby pip » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:23 pm

deep breath after that raisindot :D
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:38 pm

raisindot wrote: All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses.



Pun intended? :wink:
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Postby pip » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:45 pm

Suddenly had an image of Moist as Michael O' Leary after reading Raisindots post.

Oh god. Not sure i like him anymore.
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