I Shall Wear Midnight *Spoilers*

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Postby raisindot » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:12 pm

pandasthumb wrote:Why is Roland's bride a witch? I'm sure there could have been other ways for the CM to be called into the world? :?:


I think Pterry's point in making Letita a witch is to prove to both the reader and to Tiffany that the fairy tale myth of the ditzy blond always getting the prince doesn't always come true. Tiffany believes in this myth at the beginning, and that the fact the Letita's witch abilities defy this myth provide Tiffany with a final lesson she needs to learn--that what mythology seems to demand isn't necessarily what actually happens. The same thing happens with the Duchess, who Tiffany expects to be her typical "evil stepmother type" nemesis and turns out to be very different that what she thought. In this book Tiffany's "second/third sight" fail her quite often, perhaps because she's grown overconfident. By re-learning again that "all is not what it seems," she is able to push aside her own prejudices and preconceptions. This makes her a better witch for it.

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Postby CJDobs » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:41 pm

And as to Granny Weatherwax getting too powerful - I would really like to know who would win in a contest between Granny and the Patrician?"

I suspect The Patrician would never pick an unwinnable battle so I guess we'll never know!

:D

edit: Is unwinnable a word??? :roll:
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:43 pm

Yus.
Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them.

The rest of us are a bit crap.
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:42 pm

I think the whole idea of having to have three witches to make a coven has become redundant now. In fact it seems to have mainly been Magrat who insisted in it in the first place.

Clearly, when the young witches meet in Hat Full of Sky, they are a coven of more than three and the more we discover about Ramtops witches, the more we find there are lots of them.

Tiffany's grandmother was considered the Hag o'the Hills before her and she was the only one in the area and Tiffany herself seems to have been working as the sole witch on the Chalk for quite some time. A coven isn't necessary, but having ones sister witches keeping an eye on you seems like a sensible idea. :)
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Postby swreader » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:44 pm

Just a short note for now about this wonderful conclusion to the Tiffany series.

I think this is one of Terry's best--best written books as well as being one of the most appropiate for our time, This is first rate Pratchett--enjoyable on the first read and more and more to be appreciated on the 2nd or 3rd readings.

In response to the question about Letitia as witch (and also probably Amber also), as Jennie (the Kelda says), Tiffany needs other witches to help with the load she is carrying. And Terry leaves us with the suggestion that she will be training her own helpers, without entirely spelling it out.
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Postby raisindot » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:12 pm

Here's a very small niggling question about one line in the book.

Sorry, I had to return my U.S. version to the library, so I can't tell you the page, but it's the scene where Tiffany is introducing Granny to Mrs. Proust.

Now, consider that DW relationships between adults who aren't good friends are nearly always formal--first names are rarely used when adults talk to each other. So, an 'older' witch is ALWAYS referred to as either "Mrs.," "Ms.," or "Mistress."

So, when Tiffany introduces Mrs. Proust to Granny, she specifically introduces her as 'Mrs. Proust.'

Yet, in the U.S. version, when she introduced Mrs. Proust to Granny, she refers to the Lancre witch as "Granny Weatherwax." Instead of "Mistress Weatherwax." Somehow, this seems a total violation of protocol. Indeed, this is the ONLY time that Granny's first name is verbally spoken. Everywhere else, Tiffany always refers to her (when speaking, anyway) as Mistress Weatherwax. Doing so in this case is an insult to Granny, because she is not treated with the same level of formality.

Is this done the same way in the UK version? If so, I'm wondering whether this was an editorial oversight? I can't see this being purely intentional.

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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:46 pm

That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches. But Mrs Proust is as much the Ankh-Morpork Witch as Granny is the Lancre Witch. Despite Tiffany's nervousness about introducing them, they both recognise each other as equals (of a sort), so therefore Tiffany was right to use the honorific.

And Sharlene agrees - so there! :P
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Postby raisindot » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:19 pm

Tonyblack wrote:That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches.


When did Granny give this permission? It's been so long since I read the other two books I don't remember this bit.

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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:59 am

raisindot wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches.


When did Granny give this permission? It's been so long since I read the other two books I don't remember this bit.

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It's when Tiffany and Granny are on their way to the Trials in Hat Full of Sky. :)
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Postby proxy10 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:07 am

It was darker than Wintersmith But i love the ending....lol
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tiff and preston

Postby matthereaper » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:59 pm

in the end of ISWM are preston and tiffany in love and is the sound of love them kissing?
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Re: tiff and preston

Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:26 pm

matthereaper wrote:in the end of ISWM are preston and tiffany in love and is the sound of love them kissing?
Mat, I've deleted the other thread you started about this as it was a major spoiler for anyone who hasn't read the book yet.
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Postby badbob001 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:46 pm

Did anyone think of the Terminator movies when Esk mentions needing to save her son? Time travel. Mom protecting her son. Near unstoppable enemy that can take the form of other people. Fire.

It has been mentioned that Preston may be Esk's son, though I'm not sure. If Esk had mentioned that before the final encounter with the Cunning Man, then I could believe that she had to do something to keep him safe from him. But she says it after that, so it seems to be just an open plot thread, unless there is some timey whimey involved.

And Preston says this about his background:
My mother taught me to read and write, much against my dad's wishes, and since that meant I was no good for a proper job, I got packed off to be an apprentice priest in the Church of Om.

So for the theory that he's Esk's son to still work, Preston would need to have been given up and then adopted. It doesn't quite add up. But one thing is for sure, if Preston is Esk's son, we will hopefully have a future book about it and anything involving Preston would mean more Tiffany.

Regarding the plot with future Tif, I can't figure out any real point to it. Future Tif shadows Tif around but doesn't seem to have done anything other than to observe, save the mention of getting wind into the flames at the end, which seems contrived. It seems like Future Tif is just a plot device to reveal to the reader (and Tif) that she gets the fairy tail ending of being happy and in love. If that is the case, then Esk herself is only here to enable that plot device. I am happy to see Esk again since Equal Rites was my first Discworld book, but story wise she seemed tacked on.

I kept thinking that the witch shadowing Tif was the beautiful witch that died with the Cunning Man. Didn't Tif sometimes say things that seemed out of character during the book? For example:
    * She says to Letitia 'Stupid woman. Stupid woman! Or silly woman, if you prefer."
    * And then she suddenly says to Roland, "I will marry you."
    * And where did "Leap knave. Jump, whore." come from? Maybe from Mrs Ogg...
I kept thinking that she was somehow being controlled or influenced and I naturally thought it would be the spirit of the beautiful witch, who is somehow hiding in Tif for some reason related to the Cunning Man.

It would be a time travel fan's delight if the beautiful witch turns out to be someone Tif knows, like Esk, who escapes the fire by time traveling. And her son's father is the Cunning Man. Yeah, loopsey doo. Speaking of time travel, I loved Thief of Time and would love a return to that plotline. I am curious if Lobsang and Susan got together. I hope these 'happy ending pairings' doesn't mean we that never hear from these characters again (margaret + verence, mort + ysabell, <gulp> tiffany + preston).

But oh I so enjoyed this book. Her hookup with Preston was not obvious at first and I rather liked how that relationship evolved. It would have been sad if Tiffany had followed Granny Weatherwax in having a loney life.
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Postby pandasthumb » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:21 am

I also felt that Esk was tacked on but I have just re-read Equal Rites and now I'm not so sure. I loved the portayal of Granny in this story, she seems more human and vulnerable because of her concern and care of Esk. Readers saw this again to a lesser extent in Granny's adoption of Tiffany - so I feel that there should be a link there between them.

I also thought that the witch was the one who had been burnt trying to help Tiff. But then I also thought that when Tiffany found the doll and it had 'witch' written on it that Letitia had in fact cursed ALL witches and that was why the CM had been called into being. He being the personification of hating all witchdom.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:39 pm

Welcome to the site, badbob001!

I really need to reread ISWM - but I've got other books that need to be read first. :(
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