Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[pip]

if watching british politics has taught me anything its that when conservatives cut loose they go crazy and no species is more conservative to begin with than the dwarfs

[raisindot]

if watching british politics has taught me anything its that when conservatives cut loose they go crazy and no species is more conservative to begin with than the dwarfs

Well, that makes sense because most politicians are mental midgets anyway.

J-I-B

[raisindot]

Steady on there! It's taken long enough to let the girlies wear a bit of lippy without causing apoplexy to every passing grag without bringing civil partnerships into the equation!

Of all the DW races, dwarfs would probably be the most 'accepting' of same-sex unions--at least of males. After all, dwarfs don't even think about marriage until they have a desire to procreate, and this may not be a couple hundred years. Since the dwarfs are a male dominated society, it wouldn't seem unnatural for two male dwarfs to hook up, in the same way that near-marriage-like-same-sex relationships were considered commonplance in ancient Greece and Sparta. The only thing unnatural about such a union (for the dwarfs at least) would be that it was done for love, rather than for creating the next generation. Since anti-same-sex attitudes are driven solely by religious intolerance, and since there doesn't seem to be evidence that Tak "wroten down" laws prohibiting it (there might be; it's just something we haven't seen yet), of all the races, dwarfs would be the most likely to accept it. I mean, what you do thing those grags are doing down in the little caves all day long? Lighting candles?

If we want to be purely speculative, it's quite possible that Carrot's adoptive parents were male. They didn't seem to have other children, and why would they adopt a human unless they couldn't conceive their own?

Now, if two openly FEMALE dwarfs tried to get married, that would start a civil war.



J-I-B

[ghostsecurity28]

If we want to be purely speculative, it's quite possible that Carrot's adoptive parents were male. They didn't seem to have other children, and why would they adopt a human unless they couldn't conceive their own?

Now, if two openly FEMALE dwarfs tried to get married, that would start a civil war.



J-I-B

Now carrots adoptive parents could of been both male but chances would be very slim I cant see a couple of butch male dwarfs walking in the woods hunting wood rats and see a human child crying would want to take the baby home, general opinion it would of had to been a female dwarf who found Carrot as in thud with the dwarfs cooing over little sam

"It was a brave female dwarf that advertised the fact, in a society where the wearing of even a decent ,floor-length, leather and chainmail dress instead of leggings positioned you ,on the moral map on the far side of Tawnee and her hard-working co-workers at the pink pussycat club. but introduce a gurgling kid into the room and you could spot them instantly, for all there fearsome clang and beards you could lose a rat in."

plus I really cant see a male dwarf being called mum as if I remember he always writes to his mum and dad ?

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Most dwarfs were still referred to as 'he' as well, even when they were getting married. It was generally assumed that somewhere under all that chain mail one of them was female and that both of them knew which one this was. But the whole subject of sex was one that traditionally minded dwarfs did not discuss, perhaps out of modesty, possibly because it didn't interest them very much and certainly because they took the view that what two dwarfs decided to do together was entirely their own business.

(my emphasis)

I think that says fairly clearly that as long as its kept quiet dwarfish society has no objection to same sex pairings.

The dwarfish obsession is with conformity and traditional dwarfish society has only one outward expression of gender. The problem they have is not with females doing or not doing any role in society but with them declaring they are female.

[One Man Bucket]

As an addition to what Doughnut Jimmy said dwarfs problem with openly female dwarfs is not that they're being female but that they're not being "proper" dwarfs. They'd likely have an equally strong reaction if dwarfs started going around clean shaven. Dwarfs are like the Pharisees, Jesus reprimanded, concerned about outward displays of piety whilst inside they're as worldly as anyone else. With dwarfs you get people like Thundergust who make perfume and makeup whilst dressing in some fearsome clang.

[Maeve]

plus I really cant see a male dwarf being called mum as if I remember he always writes to his mum and dad ?

Sorry if this isn't quite on topic but I think the reason he does that is because GG was written before the idea of female dwarves occured to Terry- like at the beginning of GG Carrot refers to Minty as a she and such, then in a later book he acts shocked that anyone would do that... it's just kinda an inconsistancy that comes from the development of the series I guess.
Heh heh this is a really stupid offtopic point to make, sorry!

[Dotsie]

No, it's right on topic! Tony won't know what to make of that (actually he doesn't have a problem at all unless we're supposed to be discussing a different book)

[Maeve]

Oh good I'm so mod-phobic, I don't want to make them mad

[pip]

Tony is a water downed form of evil . its ok

[raisindot]

Oh good I'm so mod-phobic, I don't want to make them mad

Don't worry. Tony is the mellowest mod in the multiverse.



J-I-B

[Tonyblack]

It's groovy man!

[One Man Bucket]

Sorry if this isn't quite on topic but I think the reason he does that is because GG was written before the idea of female dwarves occured to Terry- like at the beginning of GG Carrot refers to Minty as a she and such, then in a later book he acts shocked that anyone would do that... it's just kinda an inconsistancy that comes from the development of the series I guess.
Heh heh this is a really stupid offtopic point to make, sorry!

It's possible that Carrot and Minty's relationship had reached a point where Carrot had figured out her gender.

[Dotsie]

Well it's possible, but I don't think so, as Carrot is a bit naive with women - it seems more like one of those "slips" you get when you say that no-one can tell the difference between dwarf genders, but as another example there is a "Mrs" waiting at home for the dwarf killed by a gonne. How does Vimes know that the dwarf killed was in fact male, at the one at home wasn't actually the husband? Because it doesn't really matter if you've forgotten what you wrote earlier will be taken very seriously by your fans!

Of course, Minty might be male, which would explain why his parents were expecially against Carrot (the King's son, after all).

[One Man Bucket]

I reckon that was Vimes demonstrating his ignorance of dwarfs and looking at them from a human perspective.

I reckon the case with Minty was that she was either too young by dwarf standards since at the time Carrot got interested in girls his age group among the dwarfs would still be prepubescent . Alternatively she was that much older than him that Mr/King Ironfounderson thought it would be awkward.