Colour of Magic - poll

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The Colour of Magic

Love it
8
15%
Like it
29
55%
OK
13
25%
Don't like it
1
2%
Hate it
2
4%
 
Total votes : 53

Re: Tolks

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:57 pm

CJDobs wrote:Jan - I've frequented many a Tolkien board over the years (understatement) including *shudders* Ringbearer before the invasion of the Elijah Wood fan club.

These Tolkien scholars to which you refer, are obviously 'nobs'. :lol:

Put an 'end' onto nob and yes you're spot on CJ :lol:

smartypooh - don't quote me (why break the habit of a lifetime :wink: ) but if balrogs could fly they were bloody crap at it. :lol:

All the ones the Prof actually wrote about fell from great heights and didn't engage their flight feathers or indeed their brakes/parachutes once. I think there's a definite passage somewhere or other (well actually more likely half a sentence) about balrogs riding on dragons, but then not all the dragons could fly either... :twisted:

See - if you're set on being a creator fantasy writer you tend to get bogged down in far too much detail and everyone blames you for it! :twisted:
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Postby Verns » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:30 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Finally Elrond wielded the most powerful of the 3 Elven Rings and by right of blood and ability he was the chief battle commander of the elves. The ring would not be in the care of an elf friend because they wouldn't have the magical wattage for a start.


Now I know Gandalf had plenty of magical wattage, but he wielded one of the rings and was no elf, so wouldn't he count as an 'elf-friend'?

Sorry, sorry, way off topic, but I couldn't resist. :oops:

Back to the Colour of Magic, I voted 'ok'. I may have my favourites in the series, but I honestly can't think of any one book that I could say I don't like or (heaven forfend) hate. There's always something good to find in even the most meh book (yes, Making Money, I'm looking at you).
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:43 pm

:lol: Gandalf certainly was an elf-friend but he was also a wizard who were really shape-shifting spirits (or angels) called Maia - he just looked like a man, but in that 'incarnation' he was around 2000 years old which is a bit of a clue :wink:
Saruman, Radagast and also Sauron were also Maiar but of varying abilities with Sauron arguably the most powerful since he was the original Dark Lord's right-hand spirit. :wink:

The elves were allied to, but not as powerful as the Maiar who lived in the West (in fact they 'made' Valinor) and so as they had a spare ring left over after the 1st defeat of Sauron, when the wizards eventually arrived in ME 1000 years later - just as Sauron re-surfaced and began to crawl his way back into power around 1000 Third Age :P - the 3rd Ring (of Fire :lol: ) was given to Gandalf.

Elrond also had a smidge of Maia blood through the maternal line as he was descended from Luthien Tinuviel the daughter of King Thingol by the Maia Melian.... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, :twisted: :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:10 pm

Won't use the 'R' word. But all joking aside Terry has a fair bit in common with Tolkien as a writer, even in terms of output (will come back to that one), but they are both products of their 'age'. They both effectively 'made it all up', heavily influenced by other sources - Tolkien with existing myth (not all of it Nordic) and Terry with other types of fantasy since the genre was more widespread by the time he came to it (remember he was born in 1948 over 10 years after the Hobbit published).

Their stylistic differences are self-evident, but they both use humour suited to their respective era and their writings all contain deeper motifs of a philosophic nature which are essentially humanist, although Tolkien follows more religious-based themes, sometimes in a very modern manner (those elves again - although highly monogamous, had no central concept of socially recognised marriage, just the physical consummation and exchanged vows of fidelity between the 2 principals were all that was required and could be easily, albeit rarely, dissolved ).

So The Hobbit and CoM/LF have quite a bit in common, in that they are less than satisfactory for most fans, compared to later works, but were commercially successful in their own right. They're not too different in 'conceptual' terms also. Neither of them come up to the mark in terms of the functionality of the worlds they're introducing, but both describe it well enough to draw the readers into it and it has enough charm to enchant them into staying with it and to read the following book(s). The real differences as authors, is not in output, but approach. Tolkien wrote as least as much as Terry has, but most of it is only of academic interest and a lot of that is language-based. Arda was Tolkien's passion - an intellectual 'hobby' project he lived and breathed. Terry's approach is also scholarly, but more science than art in some respects and although it's probably his passion as well, it's also his living.

So finally affection... I read the LotR before I read The Hobbit about 18 months later when I was already obessed with Middle Earth. I read Discworld from book 1 and was hooked almost from p.1. Maybe it's that simple - you pick up your first book, 'click' with it and read the rest, so reading order is important in some respects. If Jeff and Sharlene had picked up CoM back in 1983, when there were no other better crafted Discworld books in existence, then they possibly wouldn't have bothered to pick up any more of them as they appeared, because they would still have thought CoM was badly written rubbish with a horrible cover (in Sharlene's case :wink: ).

I don't hate or even mildly dislike the Hobbit - it's a wonderful kid's book, fun, pacey and not too 'easy' or wrapped in cotton wool and like the Potter books (sort of... :roll: ) appeals to adults too - if I'd had kids I would definitely have read it to them. I don't compare The Hobbit to the LotR and certainly not the Silmarillion (which I have no affection for whatsoever, but value very highly as a reference book) and definitely not to the Children of Hurin story (it was merely boring in the Sil and not even the incest plot shocker of brother unwittingly marrying his unknown younger sister could make this cobbled together, mix and match book anything more than completely pointless - it has great illustrations though :lol: ). I just enjoy the 'proper' books for what they are and use the rest to 'play' with and make good RP characters. :lol:
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Postby raisindot » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:57 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote: If Jeff and Sharlene had picked up CoM back in 1983, when there were no other better crafted Discworld books in existence, then they possibly wouldn't have bothered to pick up any more of them as they appeared, because they would still have thought CoM was badly written rubbish with a horrible cover (in Sharlene's case :wink: ).


Hmmmm...interesting hypothesis. Had I read it at that time, I probably would have thought it to be a poorly written imitation of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (which I still think it is), but I might have continued reading on because it might have been just amusing and novel enough to continue on. It's only when you know how far Pterry had advanced from that time that the obvious deficiencies of COM and the really early books become apparent.

As I said before, with a few exceptions, most series authors start strong and then their efforts grow weaker over time. I find the last two books of the Hitchhikers' quartet to be far inferior to the first two. After starting off well with "The Eyre Affair," the last three books in Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series are almost unreadable. Asimov kept the quality of the Foundation series up pretty high through the original trilogy, but when he attempted to add on to it decades later the results were less than impressive. Pterry is the only 'series' author I can think of who started off unpromising but just kept on getting better and better over the years. The Shakespeare analogy is throroughly appropriate.

:D

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:41 pm

No question on the Shakespeare analogy - in fact the Bard's earlier efforts were even stinkier then CoM (from your perception not mine :P ) but then senior school over here puts the average person off Shakespeare for life anyway... :roll: :lol:

With the Douglas Adams thing - at the beginning my friend Robin and I were almost convinced it was DA using a nom de plume for a fantasy series - one of the friendly crit comments said something like - "if this book had been written before HHGTTG Ford Prefect would have been left standing at Barnard's Star with his thumb stuck out..." CoM really did remind me of Hitch-hikers.

I also agree with you on the third and fourth Hitch-hikers books - DA had to pay for his 'party' lifestyle somehow :lol:
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Postby The Mad Collector » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:46 am

Why does everyone forget there are FIVE hitchhikers books, mind you last one is dreadful
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:53 am

That's why we don't remember them :lol: In fact Wiki says there's 6 of the buggers - :shock: I gave up on them after So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish.
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Postby The Mad Collector » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:01 am

The sixth book 'And Another Thing..' isn't by Adams it is by Eoin Colfer who wrote Artemis Fowl, if possibly it's even worse than the actual last book by Adams. :roll:
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Postby mystmoon » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:52 pm

I can't help but worry about what some Tolkien buffs would think of the very secret diaries of lord of the rings
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:25 pm

Some of them would read Tolkien's grocery shopping list and think it was wonderful. :lol:

The very secret diaries? I don't know what you're talking about Mystmoon - mainly 'cos I've only ever been on PG13 forums :twisted: This is the road to ruin and the way of the Star Wars fandom(s) (for there are several) which has far too much conflicting canon based on 'official' fanfic for the very lightweight blockbuster SF&F genre. Officially VSD would not be on the Tolkien canon radar as recognised by The Tolkien Estate, but then they scarcely acknowledge the Trilogy even though Fran Walsh's (Mrs. Jackson's) verbatim in places plundering of the books for the script was kosher and under licence. So a slash version of the 'Master's' oeuvre is way beyond the pale in official circles, but widely read and imitated in fandom and often quite inventively (I read one illuminating and very interesting one where Lurtz* fell deeply in love with Legolas
not for those of a sensitive nature wrote:and underwent extreme dental surgery so he wouldn't bite the elf's tongue or other flappy bits off when their civil partnership was consummated...
8)

*Lurtz was a new character for the 1st movie the rather fetching muscled and made up Uruk of Isengard who killed poor Boromir and got his head chopped off by Aragorn... :lol: He's regarded as a bona fide movie canon character but try and tell that to the nazi Officers of the Lore - from a nuclear bunker about 1000 miles away :twisted:

There are limits to how anal you can get y'know :wink:
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Postby Penfold » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:29 pm

Just out of interest, how did/do they react to National Lampoons "Bored of the Rings"?
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Postby mystmoon » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:00 pm

The Very Secret Diaries of Lord of the Rings are a series of internet spoofs found collectively here http://www.ealasaid.com/misc/vsd/
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:18 pm

Bored of the Rings? - most 'normal' fans adore it - the Lore freaks freak with it (but I think some of them secretly find it v. funny). It is of course not canon in any way except in it own cult following manner I imagine :lol:
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colour of magic

Postby james.a.vivian » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:23 pm

I liked it, it took me 2 reads to get my head around it, as it was my first DW novel. Although I'd read Darkside of the sun and strata first.
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