Monstrous Regiment Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well, that's what Allison sez, anyway. We'll really never know the truth because the producers of "The Tudors" aren't going to make up a follow up miniseries about Elizabeth (just not enough sex, I suppose).



J-I-B

You ARE kidding aren't you? She almost certainly wasn't a physical virgin and with blokes like Thomas Seymour, the Earls of Leicester and Essex, to name just a few world class chancers/adventurers sniffing around her she probably didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of at the least avoiding a bloody good groping if nothing else

Thomas Seymour is my best bet on the deed - so much so that his big brother had him executed 'cos he knew that if he married Elizabeth (after his wife Catherine Parr - previously Henry VIII's widow - died of infection after giving birth to her first child) their nephew King Edward VI's sickly tenure on the throne might soon have become conveniently fatal in favour of the then 20 year old Elizabeth who had certainly had a whopping crush on Thomas as she (and sister Mary for a while) stayed with Catherine Parr after her father died...

BTW- Thanks for pointing out the incomplete quote although I'm fine if you just show the relevant part you're attacking/commenting on unexpigated

Anyway - enough of the Tudors except I think that Elizabeth makes a pretty savvy Polly/Jackrum role model. The Duchess is definitely a Queen Victoria with her withdrawal from her generals, priests and people after the premature death of her husband as Vicky did when her husband (but only Consort not co-Monarch) Prince Albert died

[Tonyblack]

You have a little over two weeks to read or reread The Colour of Magic for the discussion starting Tuesday 5th October.

I'm starting this one on the Tuesday as I get to Tucson Sunday evening and will want Monday to recover.

[Tonyblack]

You have just over one week to read or reread The Colour of Magic for the discussion starting Tuesday 5th October.

[Tonyblack]

For anyone who might think the whole idea of women disguising themselves as men to join the military is unlikely, here's a list of some of the women who did just that and were discovered. It's anyone's guess how many were never discovered.

I got this list from a fairly quick search online:

Zoya Smirnow was a survivor of a corp of twelve Russian girls (some as young as fourteen) who disguised themselves as boys to join the army. They fought in Galacia and the Carpathians. WW1

Collette Nirouet disguised herself as a man and joined the French army to fight in World War II. She was posthumously awarded the Croix de Guerre.

In 1807 Elizabeth Bowden disguised herself as a boy and joined the British Navy, calling herself John Bowden. After being discovered to be female she remained on board as an attendant.

A report in the Naval Chronicle in 1807 describes a woman using the name of Tom Bowling who had served over 20 years as a bowswain's mate on a man-of-war.

Lucy Brewer served as a marine aboard the USS Constitution under the name George Baker from 1812 to 1814.

Dr "James" Barry did a degree at Edinburgh Medical School. She joined the British Army in 1813 and became the Surgeon General. Her gender was discovered after her death. in 1865.

Eliza Allen fought in the Mexican War of 1846-1848 disguised as a man.

Cathay Williams joined the Thirty-Eighth United States Infantry, Company A, on November 15, 1866, in St. Louis, Missouri under the name William Cathay.

Anna Henryka Pustowojtowna enlisted in the Polish army in the 1860s using the name Michal Smok.

During the American Civil War (1861-5) Sarah Emma Edmonds enlisted under the name Franklin Thompson and Jennie Hodgers fought for three years under the name Albert Cashier and even retired to a Soldiers' Home where her gender was eventually discovered in 1913.

Loreta Janeta Velazquez fought in the Confederate States Army during the American Civil War using the name Lieutenant Harry T. Buford.

It is estimated that 750 women disguised themselves as men and fought in the American Civil War.

Mary Owens served for eighteen months using the name John Evans.

Satronia Smith Hunt enlisted in an Iowa regiment with her first husband.

Mary Stevens Jenkins enlisted in a Pennsylvania regiment and remained in the army for two years.

John Williams of the Seventeenth Missouri Infantry was discharged from the army on the grounds: "proved to be a woman."

Mrs. S. M. Blaylock spent two weeks with the Twenty-sixth North Carolina Infantry, Company F before being discovered.

Mary Scaberry, alias Charles Freeman served in the Fifty-second Ohio Infantry and was discharged from Union service after her gender was discovered while she was being treated in hospital for a fever.

A teamster and a private in a Union cavalry regiment got drunk and fell into a river. The soldiers who rescued the pair found out that they were women in the process of resuscitating them.

Mary Galloway was wounded in the chest during the Battle of Antietam

A woman wearing the uniform of a Confederate private was found dead on the Gettysburg battlefield on July 17, 1863

Frances Hook, alias Frank Miller was discovered after she was wounded and captured by the Confederates.

Madame Collier and Florina Budwin were also prisoners of war.

Hannah Snell dressed as a man and called herself James Gray. She served in a regiment of the Royal Marines and fought at the siege of Pondicherry. In 1750 she revealed her secret to her comrades and was granted a lifetime pension. She died in 1791.

From January to May 1757 a woman, described as being about 5' tall and aged 19 served on board the ship "Resolution" under the name of Arthur Douglas.

Hannah Whitney served for five years as a marine. She revealed that she was a woman in 1761 after she had been locked in a cell and became claustrophobic.

Mary Lacy served as a carpenter and shipwright on board navy vessels from 1759 to 1771 under the name of William Chandler.

The Captains log for the 32 gun ship Amazon records that on 20th April 1761 "One of the marines going by the name of William Prothero was discovered to be a woman. She had done her duty on board nine months."

Deborah Sampson Gannett (or Samson) disguised herself as a man and fought in the American Revolution.

In 1771 Naval seaman Charles Waddall was found to be a woman when she was being stripped for a flogging.

In 1781 Naval seaman Margaret Thompson revealed that she was female after she had been sentenced to be flogged. She used the name George Thompson.

In 1782 there was a report of a Mrs Coles who had served on several men-of-war as a sailor.

Angelique Brulon - awarded the French Legion of Honor. She defended Corsica in seven campaigns between 1792 and 1799. At first she fought disguised as a man, by the time her gender was discovered she had proved so valuable in battle that she was allowed to remain in the military fighting openly as a woman.

In 1779 a volunteer for the 81st Highland Regiment picked up at Drumblade, Scotland turned out to be a woman.

Margaret Catchpole (1762-1869) was discovered disguised as a sailor on a British warship in 1797.

Mary Anne Talbot (1778-1808) used the name John Taylor and served in both the army and the Navy. She was wounded in battle in 1794.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Just reading this reminded me of a v.g. TV documentary a couple of years back about life aboard ship during Nelson's time (it was actually more about homosexuality in the navy - it was a hanging offence) and women (mainly prostitutes) were on board most ships with blind eyes switched to the max.

There was one woman signed on as a carpenter and retired wounded after several years undetected. She went on to marry and have kids, still receiving her navy pension They reckoned that with living conditions in the crew quarters being so dark and cramped with various nasty genital infections the norm, that women could evade discovery quite easily. That included things lavatorial, since you could get yourself into a whole heap of trouble for sniffing around a crewman's privates...

[pip]

A book i read a while back called ' History without the boring bits'
actually had a couple of good biographies about a few of these women.
I'll have to look it up when i go home.

[Tonyblack]

In the TV series of Sharpe, there's an episode called Sharpe's Regiment where there is a recruiting sergeant named Horatio Havercamp played by Norman Rossington.



It occured to me that not only did he remind me in some ways of Jackrum, but with a bit of imagination I could imagine Rossington's character being played by a larger woman. I think a woman of that stature would find it easier to hide her gender.

[Willem]

Glee just got a new castmember, a female football coach played by Dot Jones. She used to be a weightlifter/arm wrestler and it shows.

Do a google image search on her, she could pull off playing Jackrum.


edit for typo.

[Tonyblack]

Glee just got a new castmember, a female football coach played by Dot Jones. She used to be a weightlifter/arm wrestles and it shows.

Do a google image search on her, she could pull off playing Jackrum.

Oh yes.

[pip]

I can picture the conversation -
'Hi lady who could crush my head with one hand you look perfect to dress up as an old tobacco chewing sergent who's a woman but easily passes for a fat man.'

[DaveC]

Finally finished reading Monstrous Regiment 2 days ago - taken me the longest of all the books so far - apart from from my year and a half on-off affair with Com and LF.

Can't address every issue raised in the discussion, I had made some notes while read but must have lost them...or thought I had made them but hadn't.

Firstly aside from Tonker, Lofty and Wazzer's background, I didn't feel it was anywhere near as dark a book as Night Watch - which had me in tears frequently with Cable Street and Vimes' knowledge...

I did think it was getting a bit tedious discovering almost every person was a woman but still gave me a smile discovering Jackrum was too. She was like a shepard and you could easily replace 'Little Lads' with 'Little Lambs'.

Enjoyed the book a lot and didn't predict it was going to end as a courtroom drama (like the Few Good Men reference ) I kept thinking of it as a strange case on Ally McBeal, in finding out the Major, their lawyer was a woman too.

I found it really weird that none of the regiment killed anyone, especially Tonker, considering how volatile she was.

Also I would've thought that even though Igorina hadn't gone into service with a vampire that she might already have had experience dispensing with them...?

I have lots more to say but can't think of it all right now..

[DaveC]

Finally finished reading Monstrous Regiment 2 days ago - taken me the longest of all the books so far - apart from from my year and a half on-off affair with Com and LF.

Can't address every issue raised in the discussion, I had made some notes while read but must have lost them...or thought I had made them but hadn't.

Firstly aside from Tonker, Lofty and Wazzer's background, I didn't feel it was anywhere near as dark a book as Night Watch - which had me in tears frequently with Cable Street and Vimes' knowledge...

I did think it was getting a bit tedious discovering almost every person was a woman but still gave me a smile discovering Jackrum was too. She was like a shepard and you could easily replace 'Little Lads' with 'Little Lambs'.

Enjoyed the book a lot and didn't predict it was going to end as a courtroom drama (like the Few Good Men reference ) I kept thinking of it as a strange case on Ally McBeal, in finding out the Major, their lawyer was a woman too.

I found it really weird that none of the regiment killed anyone, especially Tonker, considering how volatile she was.

Also I would've thought that even though Igorina hadn't gone into service with a vampire that she might already have had experience dispensing with them...?

I have lots more to say but can't think of it all right now..

Is it just me or is Buggy the highlight of any story, loved his little bit in this and Night Watch.

[Prolekult]

I enjoyed this book, the only part I didn't really get was the whole Wazzer/Duchess thing, I think it would have been better and more appropriate if the Duchess had remained a phnatom figurehead. Jackrum and Blouse are great characters, they should have nicknamed Blouse "Smasher".

One of my favourite parts was the conversation between de Worde and Blouse, when Blouse tells de Worde that to an outsider the way to improve the clacks are obvious, and de Worde says maybe the same applies to countries. He smiled, Lieutenant Blouse did not, lol.

Was Jackrum right to deal with the captured sergeant the way he did?

[Maladict]

As you can probably guess, this is my favorite Discworld book.

Funny, though, it is not the first Monstrous Regiment I've read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Monstrous_Regiment_of_Women <- a detective novel by Laurie R. King, featuring Sherlock Holmes. Note the 't' used there also.

I've always felt that Borogravia and Zlobenia have much in common with Finland and other Scandinavian countries. Sweden used to be a military empire, and Finnish people are very proud of their warlike heritage, which sometimes means 'fighting for our groophar stupidity because it's our own groophar stupidity.' From childhood we are taught, by jokes and stories and history teachers, that our nation is better than other nations. We have jokes about the stupid Swede or the evil Russian, grandparents tell stories about badly behaving German tourists, and anyone who looks or sounds exotic is a prime suspect for any unsolved crimes you happen to have around. It is always big news here when some study announces that Finland is the richest, safest, healthiest, or otherwise best nation in the world. Pride in such things is not bad as such, but often it leads to racism and extreme nationalism.

[raisindot]

It is always big news here when some study announces that Finland is the richest, safest, healthiest, or otherwise best nation in the world. Pride in such things is not bad as such, but often it leads to racism and extreme nationalism.

Oh, great. Now you're going to tell me that the Finnish Bikini Team isn't real, either.