Monstrous Regiment Discussion *Spoilers*

[poohcarrot]

I mentioned this before, but as I've just finished re-reading it I'm going to go into more detail.

This is not just an anti-war book, it is an ANTI-INVASION OF IRAQ book.

1. It was written and published within 6 months of the Invasion.
2. It refers to the Iraq invasion - "Shock and Awe".
3. Substitute The Grand Trunk Clacks for Oil.
4. Substitute Borogravia for Iraq.
5. Substitute the Monstrous Regiment for the Insurgency.
6. Substitute the A-M Times for Fox News;
"Why This Mad State Must Be Stopped
Bewildered, her eyes picked up phrases from the sea of letters: disgraceful invasions of neighbouring states, deluded worshippers of a mad god, a strutting bully, outrage after outrage, flying in the face of international opinion..."
7. Substitute women for Iraqis (Both "inferior" races)
8. Substitute the Kneck Keep for the Green Zone.
9. Substitute Lord Rust for George Bush.
10. Vimes said he travelled 2,300 miles to get there.
The straight line distance between London / Heathrow Airport and Baghdad is approximately 2556 miles

[Tonyblack]

Ok - so in your little fantasy of Monstrous Regiment = Iraq Invasion, who is Sam Vimes supposed to be?

[poohcarrot]

Nobody.

You must admit that A-M Times quote is straight from Fox News, though.

[Tonyblack]

Well yes, but the A-M Times is a much more honest and reliable source of news than Fox. I can't see William de worde as Glen Beck somehow.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Why does it have to be Iraq? - the sound bytes are better granted, but let's see how your point list breaks down taking other parts of the world into account? My comments in blue on purpose

1. It was written and published within 6 months of the Invasion.
Terry's fast and has got great timing but it takes longer than 6 months to write, edit proof and publish a (good, well-considered) book doesn't it...? The manuscript will naturally take some sneaky updates to help things along, but I can't admire this inclusion except as a whopping great cynical exercise in bandwagon-jumping - possibly originating with the Transworld editorial team
2. It refers to the Iraq invasion - "Shock and Awe".
Kneeing someone in the nuts and tying them up 'au naturel' may be awful but unlikely to cause awe in that sense - Shock value for lesbians of a delicate nature I'll accede - virgins too - Nuggan definitely
3. Substitute The Grand Trunk Clacks for Oil.
Where - Kuwait? Venezuela and surrounding 'unfriendly' states? The whole of the Middle East in the early 1970's?
4. Substitute Borogravia for Iraq.
Or Zimbabwe? USSR? Eritrea? Somalia? Bangladesh? Biafra? Famine and war go hand in hand - like no ham, no eggs...
5. Substitute the Monstrous Regiment for the Insurgency.
Which one and how far back? Cambodia? Vietnam? American War of Independence or the Civil one? French revolution sir? Korea? India/Pakistan? How about Eire for the last 500 years (give or take a century) with breaks for a spot of potato famine and partition...?
6. Substitute the A-M Times for Fox News;
"Why This Mad State Must Be Stopped
Bewildered, her eyes picked up phrases from the sea of letters: disgraceful invasions of neighbouring states, deluded worshippers of a mad god, a strutting bully, outrage after outrage, flying in the face of international opinion..."
Did nobody say that (eventually) about Hitler? Thought of asking the Kurds for their take on what happened to them? Or the marsh arabs? Let's get more international with the Jews - how friendly were Germans; Poles; Cossacks; Spanish Inquisition; England's Angevin/Planagenet dynasty; Imperial Rome; the Pharoahs?
7. Substitute women for Iraqis (Both "inferior" races)
Marsh Arabs and Iraqi Kurds (again) and Shi'ite Muslims - or just people who didn't like men in moustaches and natty western suits making them run their lives to his designs? He was remarkably fair in the spread of his racial and religious prejudices was Saddam wasn't he? But he did persecute the men as well as the girlies so don't try to pin gender oppression on him
8. Substitute the Kneck Keep for the Green Zone.
Has this got something to do with Greenpeace? How about Masada (Israel)? The Tower of London (not just for political killings)? Khartoum? Isandlwana (Rourke's Drift)? Little Big Horn anyone?
9. Substitute Lord Rust for George Bush.
Please! Lord Rust's got some brain cells and doesn't attempt to get gung-ho under Vetinari in A-M at least...
10. Vimes said he travelled 2,300 miles to get there.
The straight line distance between London / Heathrow Airport and Baghdad is approximately 2556 miles
I thought that it was all Bush's fault? Why not from NYC where it allegedly began - Oh yeah, that's doesn't fit so well does it? PS the UK military normally use their own or NATO's airstrips so Heathrow doesn't work either.

This being published within spitting distance of the Iraq Invasion was tremendously 'fortunate' but please don't try to say that this is all about Iraq - it's about any number of idiotic politically-manipulated and militarily-advantageous wars of attrition that lose all sense of purpose and reason however flimsy. It's yet again about de-humanisation and just plain wrong 'us and them' mentality taken to imbecilic extremes with no regard for loss of any kind of life - armed forces or civilian.

[pip]

How about Eire for the last 500 years (give or take a century) with breaks for a spot of potato famine and partition...? Rolling Eyes

This could work better than the Iraqi analogy.
We Irish have a terrible tendency to worship long dead leaders.
Also Mad declerations from a crazed God.
We did have a minister chased out for proposing free medical care for Mothers and babies because the church that it would interfere with Gods natural order. And that one was just the tip of an iceberg of mad comandments.

[Jan Van Quirm]

But they do make great beer and whiskey (wiv an 'e') - that and a highly robust not to mention innovative sense of humour

[The Mad Collector]

But they do make great beer and whiskey (wiv an 'e') - that and a highly robust not to mention innovative sense of humour

They certainly do and I'll be in Dublin sampling the beer and whiskey for a few days at the beginning of November. It's a hard life but somebody has to do it

[pip]

Glad to say i spent my weekend sampling beer and whiskey in Dublin. Had to find something to do .
Might do the same this weekend.
Ah the fun.
Well done on remembering the e Jan . Most people miss the distinction.
Gold stars all round.

[raisindot]

While there certainly seem to be specific references to Iraq (like "Shock and Awe," perhaps the second stupidest phrase to emerge from the war other than Bush's wildly inaccurate "Mission Accomplished" statement), I agree with Jan that the whole thing isn't based on Iraq. Without re-quoting Pooh's list, some random thoughts on why this isn't only about Iraq.

1. Iraq was not a theological state, like North Korea or even Iran. People didn't worship Saddam Hussein like the Borogravians worshipped Nuggan and the Empress. Saddam did countless evil things, but he was a secular leader who rarely used religion as a means of unifying the population--fear was a far more effective motivator.

2. Iraq was never a 'small, impoverished state' surrounded by hostile neighbors as Borogravia was that would have led to a 'paranoid culture.' Iraq was one of the most modern and heavily militarized countries in the Middle East and, until the invasion of Kuwait was an ally of the U.S., particularly in its decade long war against Iran, another modern and heavily militarized state.

3. Iraq never even came close to depleting its army in the Iraq War to the point where it would need women to volunteer. Most soldiers surrendered. Others left the now decimated arm and joined pockets of mostly local religion faction-based insurgents (or those backed by Iran and Al-Queda) that spent as much time fighting each other as they did the U.S. army.

4. Of course the Iraq War ultimately was about oil. as the Borogravian War was about clacks access for AM. This is not unique to Iraq, however. The US didn't 'rescue' Kuwait in the Gulf War because we particularly loved Kuwaitis--they did it to protect US oil interests both in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Not commenting about the morality of such an action--pointing out that most military actions by the US in the middle east are about oil.

5. Lord Rust was no George Bush. Rust wouldn't have been there unless, as Jan said, Vetinari hadn't sent him (and Vimes) there. Rust may be more of a typical US general in way over his head, but he was not the chief decision-maker there.

6. There are many, many better examples of smaller, surrounded, poor theocracies or dictatorships that waged stupid suicidal fanatical wars or belligerent actions against their hostile neighbors than Iraq. North Korea and Cambodia during the Pol Pot era immediately comes to mind. Chechnya and Georgia may arguably be other examples. Although not industrially poor, Germany and Japan certainly fit this category in the years up to and including WWII.

The main difference between these roundworld countries/wars and those fighting in MR is that the Borogravians and their enemies at least 'respected' the rules of war. Can't say that about today's nasty warmongers.

J-I-B

[poohcarrot]

Please! Lord Rust's got some brain cells and doesn't attempt to get gung-ho under Vetinari in A-M at least...

...um yes he did. In Jingo!

It was only a talking point because nobody had said anything for the last 4 days.

If you calculate the distance between London and Bagdad in nautical miles it's 2,216 miles. Compared to Vimes saying 2,300 miles, it's pretty damn close.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Probably quantum I expect

In Jingo yes, Vetinari temporarily moves aside for Rust whilst as usual manipulating like mad behind the scenes, notably by going off in the "Going-Under-the-Water-Safely Device" with Nobby and Colon. This is the only time Rust gets the (very brief) upper hand and I doubt he'll ever get another chance. His involvement in Kneck Keep is minimal as Vimes is clearly in charge and holding the business end of the very short chain that Rust is on.

AM is effectively the UN in this and will only 'fight' to get the clacks back up and running a.s.a.p

[Who's Wee Dug]

But they do make great beer and whiskey (wiv an 'e') - that and a highly robust not to mention innovative sense of humour

[pip]

The distance for an Irishman to get home after a night of Whiskey can feel like 2300 miles.

[Jan Van Quirm]

PMSL