Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:20 pm

She could feel the marks therefore yes Vlad really bit her, but again it was for 'turning' purposes and with that the vampires 'put' some kind of essence of themselves into their victim to do the turning and convert the bitten party to their ways. It's a combination of essences passing from vampire to victim, and from victim to vampire in other words.

Because he had not so long ago been 'turning' Granny and establishing his superiority to her in the Count's cadre of dependent vampires and, as we begin to see, Granny's 'borrowing' blood is starting to gain the ascendancy over all the vampire bites she was subjected to, all Vlad did by biting Agnes was fit her into the loop of Granny's turning HIM and the other vampires into HER dependentS - which is why Agnes is raging to have a cuppa when she comes to and of course has not been turned at all! :lol: :wink:

Sharlene - it's still Granny paying her respects, just in her own manner. She respects Oats not Om, so why should she physically turn up at the service when it's Nanny whom she gets to make everyone to go to that and give him a chance to let the non-witches listen to his philosophy. He knows she has her own ways which are just as good (or better) as his because the phoenix proved that for them already. So why would he want or expect her to show up as Granny the community Witch. She actually pays him greater tolerance and honour by showing up in the borrowed eagle and later the borrowed owl which are her supreme expressions of excellence without either of them having to make empty gestures - he gets the chance to preach his faith and she demonstrates to him that she will not deny him the right to show what Om has to offer to others and publicly to those who know (Nanny and the other witches) that no one has to back off or step aside.

It's showing there's always a choice and the choices you make do not have to mean everyone else will have to make the same one. It's all grubby whites and everyone can choose their own shade of grubbiness :lol: :wink:
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Postby poohcarrot » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:08 pm

Absurd Theory #1

All witches know when they are going to die.
This was stated in books prior to CJ and in books after CJ.

Granny Weatherwax knew she was going to take on the vampyrs but wasn't going to die.
But she didn't know how she was going to beat the vampyrs.

Prior to her running off, she knew that the vampyrs were searching for her to read her mind and that they were stronger than her.

She went to Gnarly ground because she knew the vampyrs' mind-reading couldn't penetrate this terrain.
She also knew that the other witches would come to find her, and as she didn't know how to beat the vampyrs, something one of the other witches would say, would give her the key.

Once she had the key (accidently from Nanny Ogg), she went to meet the vampyrs.
They tracked her and knew she was about to enter the castle.
She was wet because all her power wasn't concentrating on keeping raindrops off her, but on keeping the vampyrs out of her mind so they couldn't see her plan.

She entered the castle and immediately came out fighting, winding up the vampyrs, playing up to the vampyrs' superiority complex, thus annoying them and giving the them no time to try to see what her plan was.

In the forge she told Oats to get ready with the axe in case she woke up a vampire. This was headology because she knew she wouldn't become a vampire. She knew she could get rid of the vampire badness in herself by placing it in something iron. This headology was to prepare Oats for later.

She got rid of all the vampire badness, but before the journey, reminded Oats to take the axe, not for her, but to kill vampyrs.
She knew Oats would do everything in his power to get her to the castle, even keeping her alive. She also knew that Oats would have an important part to play. "People meet people for a reason" - Celestine Prophecy (an absolutely pants book, written by a 3 year-old, but up to about half way before it starts getting silly, it has some interesting points)

There you go! Take that baby apart! :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:37 pm

*rubs hands but not too excitedly* This is getting silly smartypants! :twisted: I practically agree with you entirely...

except for...
pooh wrote:In the forge she told Oats to get ready with the axe in case she woke up a vampire. This was headology because she knew she wouldn't become a vampire.

Almost, but not quite, because you're ignoring the other well-established facts about Witches and Borrowing...

It was a very small risk granted, because of Granny's total mastery of the art, but almost the first thing we learn about Borrowing in Equal Rites is that you cannot stay out Borrowing too long.
Previously Granny had achieved what she thought was the impossible and borrowed the Swarm against the Elves. That was quite a big task but she managed to borrow thousands of tiny magic bee minds (possibly the airborne equivalent of Hex as that uses an ant community and of course ant are mostly flightless for nearly all of their life cycle... :P ). So that was difficult, yes? She said it was herself, so you have to agree because she wanted to eat sugar by the ton afterwards :wink: :P

How much harder was it going be to successfully inhabit and direct sentient 'superhuman' vampire minds? So no, as with the bees, she couldn't know if it would work for absolute certain, like she did about dying 'cos that wasn't going to happen - she could resist or succumb and in one option she would live on and the other be undead as a vampire. She was never going to die by the actual plan at least.

With me so far? :twisted: OK - Esk nearly got overwhelmed by the eagle she hijacked and how long was she in there? A day perhaps? One bird brain - and a single-minded predator at that. Granny has to cope with dozens of vampires (well lots of them anyway) Some of whom, the Count at least, are naturally stronger than she is. Her blood borrowing was chancy and she knew it and that was proved right by the amount of time her borrowed blood took to have some effect on them. They all managed to fly to Escrow didn't they? Before that logically, Granny hadn't got the upper hand. She had begun and the momentum for her victory built from there, but even at the Castle the Count said that eventually her borrowed blood would cease to have an effect - doesn't that mean she has to get out of their systems before that happens else she might have to stay behind when their true blood reasserts itself over hers. Therefore she had to know that she could only maintain her ascendancy for so long and maybe, if she was too weak to get out she might have been successfully turned into one of them because she couldn't fight them indefinitely. Borrowing can't be permanent... :twisted:

Consequently I must also disagree (slightly) with this too
pooh wrote:All witches know when they are going to die.

Yes they do - but how long before the event do they know? Death showed up for his 'near Granny' experiences so he thought he might be needed. Did Granny expect him to turn up when she left Lancre Castle with Oats - don't think so. Maybe on the road perhaps, but that was a consequence of the trouble she was having in keeping on top of all the vampires, by which time she'd found her ally in Oats. The axe was there for the other vampires mostly yes, but once again, absolute confidence is in fact a weakness at times. She had a shrewd idea that she would win that way certainly, but it was still a gamble she was taking against herself too.

Oh yeah - another thing! :lol:
She knew she could get rid of the vampire badness in herself by placing it in something iron. This headology was to prepare Oats for later.

That's Elves that are allergic to iron (Disc ones anyway :P ). Vampire are allergic to sharp edges like most other creatures. The forge was full of implements with sharp edges that's all. :lol:
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Postby kakaze » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:18 pm

I haven't been following the thread closely.

It seemed to me that:

1. Becoming a vampire might just count as dying in a technical sense, since your body continues to operate. Unlike becoming a zombie (i.e. Windle Poons) who has to restart his body.

2. Granny did become a vampire, but was able to use her considerable willpower to completely resist the vampiric urges without resorting to odd habits such as coco, singsongs, and photography.

3. If #2 is true, then the axe was not if she woke up as a vampire, but in case she was unable to control the urges.

4. I thought Vlad scratched Agnes but didn't penetrate due to the disorentation that Granny was causing. Presumably penetration is needed for whatever is needed to become a vampire to get into you.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:16 pm

kakaze wrote:1. Becoming a vampire might just count as dying in a technical sense, since your body continues to operate. Unlike becoming a zombie (i.e. Windle Poons) who has to restart his body.

Vampires have to do the re-start thingie too - the Count with the drop of the blood in his coffin - and of course Otto Chriek with his little phial of blood when he crumbles with the flashs

kakaze wrote:2. Granny did become a vampire, but was able to use her considerable willpower to completely resist the vampiric urges without resorting to odd habits such as coco, singsongs, and photography.

3. If #2 is true, then the axe was not if she woke up as a vampire, but in case she was unable to control the urges.

She was 'in' her blood, so yeah she was a tea-drinking vampire whilst she held control. It must have been a hell of a job because normally she doesn't have to move around when she's out borrowing, so she'd have had to have Agnes or Oats to help her as they were the only ones able to resist the vamp-trance.

kakaze wrote:4. I thought Vlad scratched Agnes but didn't penetrate due to the disorentation that Granny was causing. Presumably penetration is needed for whatever is needed to become a vampire to get into you.

She craved tea and started to talk like Granny (unintentionally and not mimicing her). He bit her properly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:46 pm

JAN, you practically agree with me entirely? :shock: :shock: :lol:

The hard part of borrowing is getting your mind into a moving, living creature. Once in, it's relatively easy to stay. That's why the "bees" was so good because Granny had to get her mind into a hundred different moving minds at the same time.

Borrowing her own blood couldn't have been that difficult, and once she was there, the vampires did all the transferring by biting her.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:06 pm

poohcarrot wrote:JAN, you practically agree with me entirely? :shock: :shock: :lol:

Scary isn't it! :shock: :lol:

pooh wrote:Borrowing her own blood couldn't have been that difficult, and once she was there, the vampires did all the transferring by biting her.

Yes, easy enough for her to get into her own blood in her own body but then having it sucked out of her into however many of them there were all highly sentient arrogant and wanting to do their usual stuff all over the place - very, very, very hard to keep control of them indeed I'd say. It's just the same as the bees only reversed and these are vampires not bees so they're much harder to handle

pooh wrote:The hard part of borrowing is getting your mind into a moving, living creature. Once in, it's relatively easy to stay. That's why the "bees" was so good because Granny had to get her mind into a hundred different moving minds at the same time.

Easy to stay and stay until you get like Esk and start to get trapped in the host mind. Borrowing only works for so long... :roll:
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Postby poohcarrot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:50 am

So maybe on the journey with Oats she was so weak because she was trying to control all the vampires at the same time, whilst staying awake. Usually she is in a trance like state, seemingly dead, when she does borrowing. As each vampire died, she got stronger and stronger because she didn't have to control as many.

And as for Death popping up, in 5th Elephant and Last Continent Death pops up even though people are not dead, because of the uncertaintity principle.
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Postby kakaze » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:56 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:She craved tea and started to talk like Granny (unintentionally and not mimicing her). He bit her properly.


Sorry, not according to my copy:

Carpe Jugulum wrote: 'I'd say stupid!' said Lacrimosa. 'Little badges? Gifts? We don't give anything! We're vampiresl We take what we want, like this-'
She reached out, grabbed a man standing near her, and turned, mouth open and hair flying.
And stopped, as if she'd been frozen.
Then she buckled, one hand reaching for her throat, and glared at her father.
'What... did you do?' she gasped. 'My throat... feels... You did something!'
The Count rubbed his forehead and pinched the bridge of his nose. 'Lacci-'
'And don't call me thatl You know how I hate that!'
There was a brief scream from one of the lesser vampires behind them. Agnes couldn't remember his name, it was probably Fenrir or Maledicta or something, but she did recall that he preferred to be known as Gerald. He sagged to his knees, clawing at his throat. None of the other vampires looked very happy, either. A couple of them were kneeling and groaning, to the bewilderment of the citizens.
'I don't... feel very well,' said the Countess, swaying slightly. 'I did say I didn't think wine was a good idea...'

[snip]

Lacrimosa leapt at her, but something else was wrong. Instead of gliding through the air like velvet death she lurched like a bird with a broken wing. But fury let her rear up in front of Agnes, one claw out to scratch-
Agnes hit her as hard as she could and felt Perdita get behind the blow as well. It shouldn't have been possible for it to connect, the girl was quick enough to run around Agnes three times before it could, but it did.

[snip]

Agnes looked up at Vlad, who was staring in horror. Lacrimosa was surrounded by a closing ring of people.
'You'd better run,' she said, 'or they'll-'
He turned and lunged, and the last thing she saw was teeth.


The vampires were having trouble attacking the humans, they couldn't bring themselves to actually bite them. Also, Agnis was taking on parts of Granny's personality before Vlat attacked her.

And, a few pages later:

Carpe Jugulum wrote: Light exploded.
And someone was about to hammer a stake through her heart.
'Stdt?' she said, knocking the hand away. She spluttered for a moment and then spat the lemon out of her mouth. 'Hey, stop that!' she tried again, this time with all the authority she could muster. 'What the heck are you doing? Do I look like a vampire?'
The man with the stake and mallet hesitated, and then tapped a finger to the side of his neck.
Agnes reached to hers, and found two raised weals.
'He must have missed!' she said, pushing the stake away and sitting up. 'Who took my stocking off? Who took off my left stocking? Is that boiling vinegar I can smell? What're all these poppyseeds doing poured down my bra? If it wasn't a woman who took my stocking off there's going to be some serious trouble, I can tell you!'


Now, "weal" is not part of my normal vocabulary, so I looked it up:

wikipedia.org wrote:Weals - A wheal or wheal response, also called a welt or weal (in the UK), is a firm, elevated swelling of the skin.


I'd say it was all Agnis/Perdita or, if not, then Granny had put a bit of influence on her earlier like she did with Magrat in Genua.
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Postby raisindot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:37 am

Agree 100% with you, Kakaze.

I interpreted the "weals" as "scratches." PTerry used this word intentionally, rather than "indentations," which would have meant penetration. It's quite clear from the use of this word and Agnes's comments afterward that "penetration" never occurred (and thus she remained 'the maid!").

That she somehow got semi-Weatherwaxed is either the result of the psychic energy she received from Vlad, who was Weatherwaxed, or through her own psychosomatic reaction--she was having a "near vampire" experience.

So she never became a vampire, and was never fully "vampired."

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Postby raisindot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am

poohcarrot wrote:
And as for Death popping up, in 5th Elephant and Last Continent Death pops up even though people are not dead, because of the uncertaintity principle.


Thank you, Pooh, for negating your argument. Unlike witches, Vimes never knew when he was going to die. Therefore, when Death has a 'near-Vimes" experience it meant that the quanta were juggling in such a way that real death may be one of the outcomes.

Since Death appears several times (starting with Granny's initial "awakening" in the Dark/Light area, and making cameo appearances on her and Oat's trek to the vampires' castle, it's also quite clear that Granny's future is also in a "quantum flux" and that she might die. If she dies, she literally becomes a vampire. Therefore, unless Granny has a better sense of when she is going to die than Death does (which we must assume is impossible), we must assume that, in this book at least, she DOESN'T know when she is going to die, and, therefore, she was never sure that her Weatherwaxing strategy would work.

:D

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:59 am

poohcarrot wrote:So maybe on the journey with Oats she was so weak because she was trying to control all the vampires at the same time, whilst staying awake. Usually she is in a trance like state, seemingly dead, when she does borrowing. As each vampire died, she got stronger and stronger because she didn't have to control as many.
Finally! :twisted: By Jove I think he's got it! PMSL :lol:

pooh wrote:And as for Death popping up, in 5th Elephant and Last Continent Death pops up even though people are not dead, because of the uncertaintity principle.
But Granny isn't subject to the uncertainty principle? :roll: Dream on then if it makes you happy :wink:

Are you related to pooh kakaze? :wink:
kakaze wrote:
wikipedia.org wrote:Weals - A wheal or wheal response, also called a welt or weal (in the UK), is a firm, elevated swelling of the skin.


I'd say it was all Agnis/Perdita or, if not, then Granny had put a bit of influence on her earlier like she did with Magrat in Genua.
To make wheals/weals the skin has to be compromised in some way - scratched or grazed somehow. Her skin had been scratched. The villagers saw the marks and that's why Agnes wakes up to a stake and hammer, because they're not about to take any chances. :P

No? OK how about some defining quotes, where Agnes and Perdita, both witches, think to themselves as they start coming around and before Agnes opens her eyes (to the stake and hammer)

CJ wrote:She felt the desire. It was tugging her forward like a current. Well she thought dreamily, at least I'll lose some weight... Yes, said Perdita, but all the eyeliner you'll have to wear must add a few pounds..........

......it was the shadow of words, the effect they leave in the mind after they have been said, and she felt her own voice rushing in to fill the shape that had appeared there. I... can't... be... having... with... this...
Her mind's voice - Granny's words. Agnes had been imitating Granny's voice and mannerisms at little Esme's naming celebration all day and just before Vlad goes for her she'd done it again when the Count was trying to work out what was happening with none of them able to feed? But that's all Agnes and she DID have a need for tea like the other vampires started to get as well, but a little later on at the Castle when Granny's hold on them had gone in deep.

Jeff - see above! :lol: The exchange of fluids when a vampire bites logically has to be transferred by the saliva as the vampire does not bleed into the victim. I will agree that Agnes' 'turning' was botched and most likely had little effect on her - not enough to turn her into a vampire. There was enough of a crossover of fluids to make Agnes hallucinate so there was nevertheless a recognition of the vampiric nature with deep cravings for blood, tea, coffee, strawberry jam - whatever. That was definitely the Granny effect from Vlad sad attempt at biting her, but not long or hard enough to turn her properly as Granny should have been :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:21 pm

The Alternate Absurd Theory

It would take too much space to requote many of these arguments, so I'll just state that I really don't like the "Granny knew all along that her plan would work and manipulated everyone from Oats to Agnes into believing she might feel" theory.

Not because it isn't plausible (it is) or because there isn't evidence to support it (there is), but because it's not particularly dramatically compelling. If we believe in this theory, then essentially Granny Weatherwax is a superhuman or almost a demi-god creature who manipulates her friends as well as her enemies to achieve the outcome she wishes to achieve. (Well, she does do this, but not to such a totally risky purpose.) If we believe this argument, then there is nothing to admire about her unless we admire Machiaviellian manipulation.

However, if we go to the beginning of the book, we already see that Granny is feeling emotionally vulnerable. She thinks she hasn't been invited to the baby naming. She feels that she's not appreciated. She feels that the Lancreans resent her for making decisions of life and death over others. She is not even quite sure whether she is a totally "good" person anymore. She is full of doubt. And perhaps part of this doubt is what made her vulnerable to the first attack of the vampires at her cottage. The "100% confident" Granny would have known that her invitation got stolen by a magpie.

But, in all the previous books, Granny is never seen as a manipulator. She is always a straight shooter who always speaks her mind and doesn't put her friends' lives at risk just for the sole purpose of riding in at the last minute to save the day.

I choose to believe that she ran away from Lancre because she really didn't think she could beat the vampires and that, because she had felt rejected by Lancre, that she wasn't even willing to try. It was only when the witches came after her and showed her the invitation that she realized how needed she really was. She may have told the witches to to off and fight the vampires by themselves, but she did this so she wouldn't have to be distracted from her own plan (which Nanny did inadvertently clue her in on) to protect the others.

She didn't know whether her Weatherwaxing plan would work, and when she first appears at Lancre, dirty and disheveled, it's clear that she's been fighting the vampire's influence (and perhaps her own self-doubts) all the way. She tests the Count at first, trying to use her usual headology, finds that this doesn't work, and then finally sacrifices herself for the good of the community, not knowing what the result will he. Is there Christ allegory here? You betcha! (Disclaimer: I'm neither Christian nor or a believer)

Metaphorically, we can interpret her whole journey with Oats as her struggling for the preservation of her soul. Perhaps she'll never become a vampire, but the presence of Death along the way demonstrates that she may lose her life. It's Oats' faith, in her, along with her own faith in herself and commitment to saving her community, along with the support of the Pheonix, that keep her going.

That she wins in the end proves that she has not only "redeemed" herself but she has also instilled morality (even if it's forced) into the Magpyrs. Again, if we want to get all biblical about it, we can find comparisons to Jesus's statement of "This is my blood you drink." It may not last long, but is there for long enough. Granny has not only won the physical struggle against the vampires, but her own personal moral struggle as well. The Phoenix confirms that she is a "good person" and this gives her the spiritual strength to triumph over the vampires, although, in the end, we need Oats to finish off the Count.

For me, this is a far more satisfying and emotional reading of the story, and it leads perfectly into the Tiffany Aching series. Dare I say it almost hits C.S. Lewis territory? (Disclaimer: not a big fan of CS Lewis.) Whatever Pterry's views on the existence of roundworld deities, it's fair to say that this is possible his most "spiritual-themed" DW book (probably even more than Small Gods, because in the latter, Brutha knew the god existed. In CJ, neither Oats nor Granny are supported by the PHYSICAL presence of a deity).


I should add here that one of the strengths of this book is that PTerry leaves enough room for either interpretation. In fact, he makes an explicit reference to the potential for this kind of debate when the witches leaves Granny in the cave. One of the witches (forgot whether it's Magrat or Agnes) asks if Granny had faked her whole 'confession of weakness' just to get the other witches to all work together. Nanny replies, "That's soggy thinking."

Interpretation off.

:)

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Last edited by raisindot on Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby raisindot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:25 pm

On the subject of thanks...Granny does thank people, but in her own indirect way.

For example, at the end, when she tells Magrat to make her a cup of tea. Anges thinks this in an insult, but Magrat instantly realizes that this is the highest compliment and gratitude that Granny can pay her--by recognizing that, under all of her queenly demeanor, she is still not only a witch, but will always be one of the "coven."

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Postby poohcarrot » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:27 pm

I was wrong! :shock:

I retract my 5th Elephant/Last Continent/Death comment.

I just tagged it on at the end as an after thought, which I didn't think about until after. :lol:
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