Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

No need to duck Jeff - it's Terry's fault for writing in such depth and texture on the subject of how good we are at rowing and fighting constantly!

[Tonyblack]

Going back to the dwarfs and whether they are religious or not. It is stated that they aren't religious. They knew that Tak made them and then left. They don't pray to Tak or worship him, but does that make their belief system (because they do believe) less of a religion?

The original dwarfs at Koom Valley as well as the trolls seemed to follow a different version of the Story of Tak - one where Tak made the trolls as well. This version seems to have been conveniently 'lost' over the millennia so that in present day DW, the dwarf spiritual leaders can condemn the trolls as 'nothing'.

The reason for fighting each other and for thousands of years of hatred is based on a lie - a deliberate misinterpretation of the species' Creation Myth. It's going to take them a long time to change the way they think - but the incontrovertible Truth in the caverns is going to make it hard for doubters to question.

Yet with all the scientific evidence we have for evolution there are still people who refuse to believe it. What's it going to take?

[CrysaniaMajere]

wow, I never have that kind of thoughts while reading TP's books, about Koom Valley I only thought it was a nice parody for all the hate in the world, where people hate each other because they are different, or because it has always be like that even if they can't even say why, and how stupid all that is while it would be so much easier and nicer to get along or simply let live in peace... never found myself thinking all that stuff...

Anyway agree as always with anyone saying how Terry is great

I loved all about this book, Mr Diamond, Detritus, Angua/Sally because Angua needed another girl to talk to other than Cheery (one more I mean, Cheery is lovely), all but the Tawnee thing because I couldn't believe Ankh-Morpork have such strange kind of men, never asking her out

[Lady Vetinari]

It is partly my fault ... I am into the second world war big time ... the persecution/concentration camp side of it in Europe more than the spitfire/doodlebug side of it.

I am truly very sorry! I will steer clear of this thread from now on in case I am tempted to do it again ...

[CrysaniaMajere]

Oh no Lady Vet, don't stay away just because I was .
Stay around here, if you do it again someone will just say "hey you're doing it again, now back on topic" and probably digress another way..

[Lady Vetinari]

Actually the Koom Valley reminds me of the Protestant/Catholic fights in Northern Ireland when The Orange Army marches through Belfast.

[Tonyblack]

I think I'll just point out that Koom Valley seems to be pronounced like the Welsh word 'cwm' which means 'valley'.

[Lady Vetinari]

So Cwmbran means Valley of the Bran

[Tonyblack]

So Cwmbran means Valley of the Bran

Yes - it actually translates as Valley of the Crow.

[Lady Vetinari]

Bran means crow?

[Tonyblack]

Bran means crow?

Not exactly 'brân' means crow - I don't know why that's so odd.

[Lady Vetinari]

I just associate Bran with breakfast ... being English ... Or the name of a king in fantasy novels ... - not with an evil looking black bird!

[swreader]

wow, I never have that kind of thoughts while reading TP's books, about Koom Valley I only thought it was a nice parody for all the hate in the world, where people hate each other because they are different, or because it has always be like that even if they can't even say why, and how stupid all that is while it would be so much easier and nicer to get along or simply let live in peace... never found myself thinking all that stuff...

Crysta-- you've hit on one of the things that makes Terry's satiric novels so good. They're not as limited as we often try to make them. And raisindot, you're right of course, about the species hatred between trolls and dwarfs. But humans in the round world don't seem to fight wars over species. Your racial analogy is one example of irrational hatred and another would be "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" attitude of the American West.

But the fact remains that a huge number of wars are fought for "religious" reasons. And just because the Dwarfs say they are not religious doesn't keep Sam (and the rest of us) from thinking it certainly sounds like religion. For example, Hamcrusher's speech in which he preaches extermination of all Trolls as "an act of charity" is a kind of "sermon. But not all rocks are trolls, and the dwarfs seem to see them that way. And a sentient being (even if a rock) objects to being mined. I suspect the "stealing" that Hamcrusher refers to is the refusal of Trolls to allow themselves to be mined/attacked by the dwarfs. And the Dwarfs creation myth certainly echoes (somewhat distortedly) the 1st Chapter of Genesis--(the one without Adam and Eve). I think that Terry is making the Dwarf/Troll relation symbolized by Koom Valley applicable to all the senseless wars (like Northern Ireland) or terrorist activity in the name of religion which have existed for so long in our round world.

I found Angua very annoying in this book. Did anyone else? She has been acting (as Sally points out) like a dog with a master. Granted, in some ways a werewolf is, I suppose, a kind of dog. But in the other books Angua (and Terry) make more of a contrast between dogs and wolves. I suppose it's possible to see the werewolf/vampire thing as an old enmity from Uberwald's past that still colors the way they react to some extent. But I think that Jan and others are right (me too) in saying that "the girls night out" and the relations between Anuga and Sally are meant to be if not comic, at least lighter relief. I just think that whole thing drags and isn't that funny. And Colon and Nobby have become pretty much a one joke standard. But at least they don't feature as much here as in 5th Elephant. I've always pictured "Tawnee" as a dumb blonde stereotype, although I don't think her coloring is mentioned. On another board, people got upset that the girls were breaking up Nobby's romance--which clearly isn't the case. But the dumb blonde who can't cook is just too stereotypical for my taste.

One of the "comic" people that I do think works brilliantly is A.E. Pessimal--and his transformation, which absolutely confounds Vetinari and turns his deliberate "joke" of foisting him on Sam Vimes completely around.

[Tonyblack]

I'd just like to point out, because it seems that a lot of people miss this (including Sharlene ) - Nobby's girlfriend's name is 'Tawneee' with 3 Es.

[Sjoerd3000]

Maybe because of Godwin's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%s_law
(stupid link won't work properly )

It's the apostrophe in the link that's the problem.

I've repaired the links by substituting a % for the apostrophe.

Thanks