Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:23 pm

raisindot wrote:Perhaps if some sort of irrefutable proof (a 'cube equivalent') revealed that Jesus wasn't crucified or resurrected or that he never intended for his teachings to become the basis for a new religion?

Nice commentary so far guys but please, purr-lease don't bring the rotten Da Vinci Code into this one! :roll: I may just throw up :twisted: :lol:
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:29 pm

Well I wasn't going to, but...

Don't you think that Terry is having a little fun in Thud with that book? :wink:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:40 pm

Or the OT! :twisted: :lol:

Yes of course he's having fun - doesn't he always. 8) My favourite bit was the magicked coach ride wiv exploding cabbages - nice to see a bit of proper practical magic coming out of UU for a change :D
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:14 pm

Too bad Leonard da Quirm didn't paint the battle of koom valley. Then the book could be called The Da Quirm Code :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:56 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Well I wasn't going to, but...

Don't you think that Terry is having a little fun in Thud with that book? :wink:


Good gosh--you know, I must be thick as a troll because I never made this connection.

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Postby raisindot » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:58 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:Too bad Leonard da Quirm didn't paint the battle of koom valley. Then the book could be called The Da Quirm Code :wink:


Yeah, but if Leonard had painted it there would have been all sorts of side drawings of nuclear weapons all over the edges.

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Postby raisindot » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:11 pm

The one thing in the novel that I had the most problem understanding (and which I posted in a separate topic last year) was how Methodia Rascal was able to paint such a detailed and supposedly historically accurate painting of the battle when it didn't appear he was a historian and did not speak either Dwarfish or Troll.

I thought at first that when he found the Cube, that it "told" him about the battle (all those battle sounds that came out after Bloodaxe's and Shine's speeches). But since Rascal didn't speak Dwarfish, how would have known what it said?

If it wasn't the cube that told him the story of the events of the battle, and he couldn't understand the language of the cube, what then inspired him to spend 20 years paining the painting? Did the cube have some kind of "mystic quality" that imparted to him the importance and details of the battle? After all, it didn't seem that Rascal originally went to Koom Valley to indulge a passion for history--he was interested in finding the right spot for a landscape.

Not the key point, but one that's always bugged me. Oh, that and trying to figure out why Lady Sibyl needed to paint two copies of the painting.

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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:46 pm

I think it was more a case of careful research by Rascal. It's like some of the military artists of today who paint scenes from famous battles such as Waterloo. They do the research to get the details right. In fact the painting may be more accurate that the ones at the time as there may be less poetic licence and propaganda.

Remember that the battles was a huge part of both dwarf and troll history and folklore - there would have been all sorts of accounts of it passed down. The real important bit though was the placement of the mountains as they were the key to the whole mystery. :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:54 pm

Maybe the box spoke 'chicken' more than we're shown - it did at first anyway or maybe it was psychoactive in some way, so it could make it through to someone who wasn't particularly mentally stable? Or fed visuals into his head. Some artists 'see' music as colours (Kandinsky) so seeing sounds as pictures isn't too much of a stretch :wink:

Also - sometimes if you hear people talking in a totally foreign language you can still pick nuances of meaning in the tone etc
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Postby poohcarrot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:48 pm

Although I haven't yet contributed to this debate, I have been reading what people have been saying (Nice into J-I-B). :P

Well here goes, controvesy time. :twisted:

I don't rate Thud that highly for the following reasons.

a. It's hardly a laugh-a-minute book.
b. It seemed to me like a glorified commercial for the board game "Thud".
c. The spin-off "Where's my cow" was designed to "milk" Discworld fans of their money. It was awful.
d. I thought the point TP was making was too blantantly obvious and about as subtle as a brick.

Dealing with point "d", you have to bear in mind that this book was written in the same year as the London bombings and the ongoing debacle of the Iraq occupation. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but I believe the Deep down dwarfs are meant to represent fundamental muslims (possibly living in the UK and not even attempting to adapt to British lifestyle), while the trolls I believe are meant to represent the fundamental Christians (Bush & Blair etc).

I mean no rascist/religious offence from these comments, because as far as I can see, fundamentalism is wrong, which ever God you believe in.
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:11 pm

Regarding point 'D' - well of course it was. :wink: But I think it was referring to fundamentalists in general. People who would rather destroy the truth than admit they might have been wrong. It's a point he goes back to, to a degree, in Nation.

As to point 'A' - well I wasn't bothered by that. I don't read Pratchett books for laughs. The 'funny' books tend to lose their humour after a few readings. I prefer thoughtful to funny. :wink:

The game, Thud! has been around since 2002 and is based on ancient Norse board games. It was around a long time before the book. Is this book a commercial for it? :? I guess that's arguable. I certainly didn't want to rush out an buy a game as soon as I read it and I've still managed not to want to buy one.

The same with 'Where's My Cow' - I have a copy of it, but only because a rep at Harper Collins gave Sharlene a free copy when she had the bookstore. I wouldn't have actually bought it unless I saw it in a charity shop or for less than a couple of quid. But there does seem to have been a market for it. :)
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Postby poohcarrot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:22 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Regarding point 'D' - well of course it was. :wink: But I think it was referring to fundamentalists in general. People who would rather destroy the truth than admit they might have been wrong. It's a point he goes back to, to a degree, in Nation.

So why has nobody mentioned it then?
I also thought that I'd stated it was against fundamentalism is general, hadn't I? :?
tonyblack wrote:The same with 'Where's My Cow' - I have a copy of it, but only because a rep at Harper Collins gave Sharlene a free copy when she had the bookstore. I wouldn't have actually bought it unless I saw it in a charity shop or for less than a couple of quid. But there does seem to have been a market for it.

Yeah! Discworld fans like me! :lol:
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Postby Penfold » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pm

Regarding point A, I haven't read it for a while but I still enjoyed it and found it more than humorous enough to hold my attention. Still, as mentioned numerous times elsewhere, horses for courses etc.

For point B, I don't think your idea for the book to be a glorified commercial for the game holds water. I never even knew such a game existed until a few weeks ago so it was hardly a successful advert, if that was its intention.

I agree with you on point C and thought this at the time when it was released.

I sort of agree with you on point D as well, although Terry did much the same from a different perspective with Jingo and patriotism (the conversation between Colon and Nobby (p28/29) springing to mind). The storyline for Ankh Morpork going to war with Klatch echoed the Gulf War(s) rather loudly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:50 pm

Penfold wrote:rI sort of agree with you on point D as well, although Terry did much the same from a different perspective with Jingo and patriotism (the conversation between Colon and Nobby (p28/29) springing to mind). The storyline for Ankh Morpork going to war with Klatch echoed the Gulf War(s) rather loudly.


Patriotism is one thing, religious fundamentalism is a totally different thing.
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Postby Penfold » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:02 pm

OK, maybe patriotism is the wrong word but the opinion of "we're better than you because we live here" and "our culture is more valid than yours" is equally as misguided and dangerous.
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