Next Moist book and thw watch.

[Jarmara]

Lords and Ladies is one of my all time faves!

How do you mean the elves are too violent?

Also, Escrow... was it people as cattle that disgusted you or the idea that people would willingly submit to that?

Just interested.

[Tonyblack]

Interesting comments Mole. Terry seems to have taken the idea of elves and turned on it's head in LL. Tolkien elves they ain't! I actually quite like what he's done there.

And by the same token in CJ he's shown just how evil the vampires can be. Up until CJ Discworld vampires had become a bit of a joke and we had gotten away from how nasty they actually are.

Oddly enough those are two of my favourite books for exactly the reason you don't like them.

[TheMole]

Tonyblack was quicker on uptake.

You see, my opinion on elves was mainly built by JRRT - proud and beautiful folk and so on - so I was quite shocked by Terry´s elves burning villages, torturing people or pushing baby rabbits into anthill... Well, of course Terry´s elves are also proud and beautiful folk, but - you know what I mean.

Yes, Jarmara, I was disgusted by people submitting to Count´s plan... "Torches had been lit. People had congregated there, most of them with blankets across their shoulders or a coat over their night clothes, standing around in aimless groups like people who'd heard the fire alarm but hadn't seen the smoke... 'I will just have a brief chat to the mayor,' said the Count. 'He appreciates being kept informed.' ... She noticed the vampires taking up positions in a line in front of the bell tower, about four or five feet apart. ... The Count was deep in conversation with the mayor, who was staring down at his feet. Now, across the square, the people were beginning to form lines. A couple of small children pulled away from their parents' hands and chased one another up and down the lines of people, laughing ..." and so on

Well, you can say the people had not much of choice, against intelligent and well-organized vampires - but nevertheless, I think they should have fought against them...

And yes, I know how evil can vampires be, that´s why I like rather the Old Count´s attitude to these matters - Don´tgonearthecastle

[Tonyblack]

Again an interesting comment about the people of Escrow.

But people are like this - they do put up with the most awful things because they are afraid to make a stand. In our own history there have been similar cases of communities under fear of death who have complied rather than stood up to their aggressors.

I think if you look at the parallels then Terry has captured human behaviour very well indeed.

[Dotsie]

And of course he writes about the same sort of thing in Guards! Guards! when poor old Sybil is about to be fed to a dragon.

[Catch-up]

Same for me Tony, I think I enjoyed L&L all the more because it turned around that elf stereotype. Overall I really enjoy Terry's books because he makes you look at things differently, and he really captures true human nature.

[Jinx]

... he really captures true human nature.

Which unfortunately is sometimes ugly, sometimes pitiful, sometimes something else...
It's a pretty complex nature.

Sometimes characters in a book can inspire you, sometimes they can make you laugh, sometimes they make you cringe, sometimes they can... well I could go on and on here too. =P

Personally I hate when I have to cringe for someone else, particularly when that some one is fictional.

I remember how I felt when I read 1984 and the party had broke Winston wasn't a particularly pleasant feeling but I can't any other ending would've been more appropriate. {<- Hidden spoiler}

[Catch-up]

I agree, he doesn't hesitate to illustrate the worst as well as the best. It does make you cringe when you read how some of the characters behave in the worst situations, like when they're being bigoted and hateful and looking for any reason to attack each other. It's all too real.

[TheMole]

And of course he writes about the same sort of thing in Guards! Guards!

And, of course, the famous Vetinari´s speech beginning with "A great rolling sea of evil"...
I remember I was sad and silent for quite a long time, when I had read it for the first time...

[Jarmara]

Ahhhhh, I see about the elves! In actual fact, it wasn't Terry who turned Elves characters on their heads, it was the Victorians and in some respects, Tolkien. All that stuff Terry wrote about things people did to ward off fairies is taken from actual Earthbound folklore, stuff people really did.

Back when people really believed in fairies (elves, whatever) they feared them. They stole your children, they killed your livestock, they spirited you away to their fairylands and you were lost forever. Terry is taking the Fey back to their roots, I'm all for it.

As for Escrow, as Tony says, this is how people tend to react. Sad but true and one of the things I like best about the Discworld books is the representation of real people and real reactions. I don't read any other fantasy because the people are all to perfect, too black and white. I prefer humanity real, even if that means sometimes ugly.

[Catch-up]

Ahhhhh, I see about the elves! In actual fact, it wasn't Terry who turned Elves characters on their heads, it was the Victorians and in some respects, Tolkien. All that stuff Terry wrote about things people did to ward off fairies is taken from actual Earthbound folklore, stuff people really did.

That's a much better, and more accurate way of putting it!

[chris.ph]

i agree with jarmra on this the legends on fairies say about changlings , the aversion to iron and getting trapped in fairy rings. one of my other favourite authors simon r green also portrays fairies as right evil barstewards

[aichtay]

In the words of MCR... "Vampires will never hurt you"... but you can damn well bet Vetinari will