Pyramids Discussion *Spoilers*

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:57 pm

This is the theory I meant Doughnut Jimmy...

me wrote:That also leads to yet another issue - are the all the pyramids part of a circuit which the great pyramid overloads and sets off a chain reaction when it goes ciritical? Does it's huge power surge blast through all the other pyramids to trigger the mummies into finally walking and talking again? I'm thinking of the way lightning works and channels itself (in Tony's calendar piccy) so maybe there isn't necessarily a permanent linkage at work, but when Ptaclusp A & B try to cap it, the charge they set off hit all the other flares and that not only triggered the massive shift in the temporal plane for the whole valley of the Djel, but also pulled the other pyramids 'online' to pick up the charge and do the Frankenstein things for the mummies too. An interesting theory to ponder anyway :lol:

All the pyramids flare nightly but obviously the great pyramid is the key instigator for the entire valley being shifted onto another plane of time/reality and for the gods to turn up so inconveniently. I'm attracted to the idea that the other pyramids may also have had a part in reanimating the dead kings and nobles but pick holes by all means. :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10474
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby poohcarrot » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:23 am

The oldest king who read the inscription in Dios' pyramid was "more than 6,000 years old". This implies 6,000 - 6,500 years old. Older than that would be nearly 7,000 years old.

Assuming each king to have an average life span of 50 years as king, this implies there are between 10 - 19 kings not there, who are probably still in their pyramids and haven't had the doorseals broken yet.

Therefore Khuft is still in his pyramid and hasn't had his doorseal broken yet. 8)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Dios went back to the start again, he must have aged between the time he first met Khuft and his pyramid was built. But 7,000 years later he was younger than when his pyramid was built.

Therefore his pyramid takes him back in time and makes him younger. 8)
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby poohcarrot » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:22 am

Tonyblack wrote:What copy do you have Pooh? - I have the hardback and the paperback and neither of them have more than 290 pages.


In my book it has the following printing history

Victor Gollancz 1989
Corgi 1990 reprinted
Corgi 1991 reprinted
Corgi 1993 reissued
Corgi 1994 reprinted
Corgi 1995 reprinted
Corgi 1996 reprinted
Corgi 1997 reprinted

So I assume in 1993 it was reissued and made to look longer by having less words to a page. There are 380 pages.

My UK proof only has 270 pages and is signed and dedicated to some guy called "Dave" with the inscription "May your camels be multiplied"
I actually have 4 other proofs from the same source all signed and dedicated to Dave (David)

Who is this Dave guy?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby Sjoerd3000 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:21 am

David Jason? :wink:
A poster outside one shop urged people to Dig For Victory, as if it were some kind of turnip.
User avatar
Sjoerd3000
Member
 
Posts: 8797
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:23 pm
Location: Groningen, The Netherlands

Postby Tonyblack » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:43 pm

Did anyone notice the possible foreshadowing for 'Eric'? Copolymer is telling the story of the Tsortean War and mentions "Lavaelous" as being one of the heroes involved. There's a 'Lavaeolus' (note spelling) who appears to be an ancestor of Rincewind taking part in the Tsortean War in 'Eric' which came out the year after 'Pyramids'. :)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28674
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:22 pm

See! Pyramids IS prophetic! :lol: The John the Baptist of the Discworld :P

And as it's Sunday I'm pondering the philosophic aspects today so expect a nice long post later on... :twisted:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10474
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:10 pm

Myths are malleable platforms on which belief gathers or is attracted. Belief often creates gods that encompass the myth and make it plausible enough. From there religion is formed on belief that is itself then manipulated by clever chaps so that the god(s) can be worshipped 'properly' (aka organised with due ceremony including valuable gift-giving, occasionally of a fatal nature, which the clever chaps of course need to organise some more) and so are made to make a whole culture work... :roll:

Norse sagas say a lot of about Ice Giants - they have their rational basis in periods of rampant glaciation aka Ice Ages. Legends of Ogres (as opposed to Trolls) are thought to have originated in the times when Neanderthal humans co-existed with the Cro Magnons (us, Homo Sapiens). Ironically, although recent studies are showing that the Neanderthalers were definitely Ogre material being bigger (as in build as they were not as tall), stronger (really big muscles) and pretty much as smart as us, being superbly adapted for a hard life in the Ice Age; but they didn't do too well when the last big freeze receded and so the more adaptable Cro Magnons out-evolving the older branch of the family took advantage of this and may even have assisted the poor old-fashioned cavemen on their way to extinction by indulging in a little prehistoric genocide... :shock:

And such is the basis of mythology - stories get told of the great giant ice river that carved a continent with its bare 'hands', or of the horrid hairy hunched big bad ogre of a Neanderthal who would kill you in an amusingly horrible way soon as look at you unless you nipped in there quick and slammed a flint blade between his shoulders... the stuff of legends. Most legends/mythologies have a basis in reality but their meaning gets twisted in time and a multitude of re-tellings and this is how a culture like the Egyptians had comes into being. Most people would would agree that desert cultures are big on gods. They're hard environments to live in and so sharing knowledge to pass on to following generations on how to survive is vital. Some of this knowledge is perfectly sensible - hygiene is of course the basis of some taboos or practices that continue to this day. If you live in a hot country eating shellfish and pork (or meat in general) can be a bad idea, circumcision in males (not females) is a very good idea in some cases, so share the joy and all the chaps have it done nice and early and ideally don't catch anything too nasty when they grow up - provided they're clean in their habits and don't get too fond of their livestock... :oops:

Religion generally defines and solidifies myth and legend into a social culture and is quite often very fair in wanting the same thing for everyone, but the trick of course is to control it - which is naturally what Dios does with Khuft and with his descendants for 7,000 years. In Pyramids, Terry doesn't touch on the gods or religion as such until the Valley's rocked off its proper dimension. The gods return like a surreal plague and Dios is completely horrified that the load of tosh he's been peddling to help the Pyramid culture turns into the real stuff of legend and of nightmare. Terry has a field day with the sun gods naturally. They didn't have tons of these on purpose - some of them were regional and more popular at certain times or perhaps 'infected' by or even passed on to other cultures and conquerors (the charioteer god for instance went down big with the Greeks and it's not certain who gave who that one). The dung beetle god's pure Africa and thoroughly symbolic even though it's based on sheer crap. If Africa didn't have dung beetles it'd soon disappear under the resultant midden. And the beetle of course uses its nice big chewy piece of dung to ensure a good meal and start to life for it's larva. So it's a lovely philosophic 'circle of life' tale that would explain how the world works and replaces itself in a kind of immortal cycle to people who haven't really thought it through. The sort of people who haven't got anything better to do of an evening than go down to the River Djel and watch Croc and Hippo TV and maybe have a beer and a smoke whilst listening to the strange ole priest babbling on about your place in the scheme of things and maybe having an invigorating sing-song while you're at it? :P

Dios is the High Priest of his own cult effectively - the gods are all of his own making and as he is immortal all myth starts with him so he is the Ultimate Creator God and the gods he creates are his own chess pieces in the same way that Blind Io, Offler, the Lady and Fate do with 'normal' people. His default nature is as a High Priest/Grand Vizier however, so he's much more interested in normal people, including the kings, doing what he says when he says it, so he's a lot more cynical and purposeful than the inhabitants of Cori Celesti with his chess pieces. Having them come to life and completely ignore him is the start of his come-uppance and when he realises that the game's up. No wonder he's in such a state of shock and hardly notices what the other leading priests are getting up to trying to stay on top of things because he has to leg it back to Necropolis... :twisted:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10474
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:00 am

I'd pretty much agree with your assessment of myth/religion, Jan.

In the case of Dios - he's so firmly in a groove as far as routine is concerned that he takes the whole kingdom along with him. Just about all the gods he creates are gods for times of the day. He has created prayers and rituals for each hour because his life has become one unwavering routine and he'll do anything to keep that routine going. Someone mentioned (possibly in another thread) the post office cat in Going Postal and Making Money. That's Dios!

The gods are his way of forcing ritual onto people. People who don't follow the rituals have a pretty short life expectancy.

The Catholic religion has been criticised in history for its strict routine - prayers for certain times of the day and precise actions to be carried out by the congregation during services. Although I don't think there's any crocodiles involved. :lol:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28674
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:01 am

You have Two Weeks to read or reread Wyrd Sisters for the discussion starting on Monday 1st February. :D
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28674
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:17 pm

Jan you may be right:
Jan wrote wrote:This is the theory I meant Doughnut Jimmy...

me wrote:
That also leads to yet another issue - are the all the pyramids part of a circuit which the great pyramid overloads and sets off a chain reaction when it goes ciritical? Does it's huge power surge blast through all the other pyramids to trigger the mummies into finally walking and talking again? I'm thinking of the way lightning works and channels itself (in Tony's calendar piccy) so maybe there isn't necessarily a permanent linkage at work, but when Ptaclusp A & B try to cap it, the charge they set off hit all the other flares and that not only triggered the massive shift in the temporal plane for the whole valley of the Djel, but also pulled the other pyramids 'online' to pick up the charge and do the Frankenstein things for the mummies too. An interesting theory to ponder anyway

All the pyramids flare nightly but obviously the great pyramid is the key instigator for the entire valley being shifted onto another plane of time/reality and for the gods to turn up so inconveniently. I'm attracted to the idea that the other pyramids may also have had a part in reanimating the dead kings and nobles but pick holes by all means.


but I don't have the book to hand to check what the other pyramids do when the great one shifts the valley. I had thought it was the separation from the rest of the disc that allowed belief to affect the valley and reanimate the mummies but I think I'll have to reread that section :)
"when the gods made sheep they must've left their brains in their other coat"
User avatar
Doughnut Jimmy
Member
 
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:51 pm

Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:23 pm

Tonyblack wrote:The gods are his way of forcing ritual onto people. People who don't follow the rituals have a pretty short life expectancy.

The Catholic religion has been criticised in history for its strict routine - prayers for certain times of the day and precise actions to be carried out by the congregation during services. Although I don't think there's any crocodiles involved. :lol:


I am not sure about that... I knew a nun who was scary enough that a crocodile would have seemed mild by comparison... *shudder*

I love the fact that the "Gods" were all terribly self-centered AND obnoxious! Some of them were awfully stupid too. :lol: I was amused by the play by play part about the gods fighting over the Sun.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
User avatar
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit
Member
 
Posts: 3885
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 7:25 pm
Location: Byron IL USA and The Quirm School for Young People ... it's genetic, you know

Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:04 am

The more I thought about my comment of the Catholic religion, the more I thought about the way Catholics have saints for every day and for every reason. Just about each job has a patron saint and there are saints for all purposes.

Then you have the rituals and above all the sense of guilt the Catholic religion piles onto its members. It's a religion that states that even the most innocent baby is full of sin and they spend their lives trying to wash their souls clean.

The people who won't leave the prisons and see it as their duty to report themselves for punishment is, I think, alluding to this sort of ritual brainwashing.

I'm sorry if this upsets any Catholics here, but I was brought up as one and this is just my point of view. And maybe most religions strive to keep their members from thinking for themselves. :?
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28674
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby poohcarrot » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:55 am

:shock:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby Dotsie » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:00 am

What's that :shock: for?
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
User avatar
Dotsie
Member
 
Posts: 9412
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am

Postby poohcarrot » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am

Tony wrote:.... ritual brainwashing.....most religions strive to keep their members from thinking for themselves.


Can't argue with that.

So have "true" believers been kept from thinking by being ritually brainwashed by their religion?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests