Pyramids Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby swreader » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:16 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
Dios' tomb is open because he uses it quite frequently to recharge his mortal body enough to keep going as High Priest - I can't remember whether it's said he locks it up in some way, but given that the earliest mummies (including Khuft?) may have known he had one for himself perhaps they have broken into it to try and nail the horrible git. :lol:


While I don't disagree really with what you said in your full post, I realize I didn't make myself clear in one respect (or at least I think I didn't). Dios is lying when he tells Teppic that he has a tomb which one of the prior rulers had made for him. Yes indeed there is a tomb that he uses to recharge himself--and has for 7000 years. It's Khuft's tomb - as we realize when Teppicymon, Gern and Dil reach Khuft's tomb, find it open and find the marks inside.

And if you look at the 2nd page of the paperback , there is a description of Dios as he gets up after "recharging himself" Terry writes:

"He swung his legs off the slab in the little chamber. With barely a conscious prompting from his brain his right hand grasped the snake-entwined staff of office. He paused to make another mark on the wall, pulled his robe around him and stepped smartly down the sloping passage and out into the sunlight, the words of the Invocation of the New Sun already lining up in his mind. The night was forgotten, the day was ahead. There was much careful advice and guidance to be given, and Dios existed only to serve.

Dios didn't have the oddest bedroom in the world. It was just the oddest bedroom anyone has ever walked out of."

Now it seems clear to me that Terry makes this tomb that Dios rests in the tomb of Khuft--found empty with markings at a later time. The question is, if Dios isn't Khuft (and I don't think he is), then where is Khuft?

The problem with this book is that Terry is trying to do too many things. Some of what he does is indeed pretty much slapstick--having Dios stopped by the spit of a camel comes close to that. But on the other hand, this isn't your average camel.

And if you look at Dios "transportation" to the beginning of the Kingdom, it does correspond somewhat to what Khuft told Teppic (in Teppic's dream) about how the Valley came to be. So my question, perhaps re-pharased is if Dios isn't Khuft, then where is Khuft?
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:07 am

Well my recall is even less perfect than usual atm and, as you say, Terry's skimming around a lot in some of the sequences so I guess this is one of those anomalies that crop up with his books. Pyramids in Roundworld often had antechambers (even Tutankhamun's tomb - which is I think the smallest in the Valley of the Kings, and not a pyramid of course - had two or three chambers in it) so perhaps Khuft was farther back, although I don't know that Terry's description was that vague so probably not.

If it was, then maybe Khuft had already got out - he wouldn't have had to break his way out of the outer door at least, so maybe he'd emerged from his own pokey chamber and got through a less substantial portal and then met no resistance in the chamber Dios used. The chief servants of the Roundworld Pharoahs were sometimes buried with their god-king and maybe Dios took that option, but didn't get around to taking the dying/mummification route.
Or maybe Khuft was a deposed king like Teppic nearly ended up being and so never made it into the tomb at all and was instead fed to the crocodiles, then Dios took the tomb for himself?

When we see him at the end of the book Khuft is certainly another person, so the answer lies in the Valley somehow - perhaps Khuft is also stuck in this loop with Dios, although that seems unlikely too. :?
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Postby poohcarrot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:50 am

Dios can't be Khuft. Dios has lived for 7,000 years by reversing time in his pyramid. If he was the first king, Khuft, then as he's still alive, how could there have been any more kings and queens? Surely he would just have continued as king for 7,000 years?

But then where (as SW points out) is Khuft?

Pyramids weren't built until the king was dead. There is a pyramid for Khuft. Therefore Khuft died when he was king. I reckon the dead Khuft was thrown to the crocs by Dios, who then took over Khuft's pyramid for recharging purposes.
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Postby poohcarrot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:23 am

Ignore the post above - it's piffle.

Khuft built the first pyramid for Dios. His was the first, not the first king.

The following was on the doorseal;

Page 321
"KHUFT HAD ME MADE. THE FIRST"

That's why Dios' name is in the pyramid and the following inscription;

Page 331
"Khuft-too-said-unto-the-first (Dios), What-may-we-give-unto-you, Who-has-taught-us-the-right-ways (Dios).
And-the-first-spake, and-this-he-spake, build-me-a-pyramid, that-I-may-rest.
And-the-name-of-the-first-was DIOS
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:24 am

What copy do you have Pooh? - I have the hardback and the paperback and neither of them have more than 290 pages. While I absolutely agree with you that Khuft had the pyramid built for Dios, the book doesn't actually say that. Terry stops short of naming the name on the seal, he just hints at the sudden realisation of the whole line of ancestors that they've all had the same high priest.

But there was no name. It was just a babble of raised voices, arguments, ancient cursewords, spreading along the line of desiccated ancestors like a spark along a powder trail. Until it reached Teppicymon, who exploded.


That was presumably the first time that it was realised just how long Dios had been running things. If all the ancestors were like Teppicymon, then they had been tied pretty much to their bodies, conscious of the passing of time and not able to finish their lives for thousands of years. No wonder they were p*ssed off. :lol:
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Postby poohcarrot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:26 pm

I have the Josh Kirby paperback which is 380 pages long.

Read the paragraph just before the one you quoted. It basically says Khuft built the first pyramid for Dios. Granted it doesn't name him but that's why the mummies are angry. It's not on the seal, it's inside where he's named.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:56 pm

As Pooh's quotes say Dios has his own pyramid, made for him by Khuft. He didn't need to throw Khuft to the crocs to get it, Khuft may or may not have had his own pyramid (perhaps only later kings got the idea that they could confer immortality) if he did have one it appears to have been lost.

If we assume the scene at the end of the book is the same as the original discovery of the valley Dios is already there when the camels arrive therefore the "first".

(or I may be talking complete rubbish!)
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:44 pm

poohcarrot wrote:I have the Josh Kirby paperback which is 380 pages long.

Read the paragraph just before the one you quoted. It basically says Khuft built the first pyramid for Dios. Granted it doesn't name him but that's why the mummies are angry. It's not on the seal, it's inside where he's named.
Yes, I agree with that. :) I have the Josh Kirby paperback as well, but there's only 285 pages in it. :shock:

And DJ - yes, that's right. Dios was already there. :)

Actually, Dios's pyramid seems different to the others in that it runs time backwards rather than holding time in a 'null' state. This is in keeping with what we learn in an earlier passage in the book which describes the uses of pyramids.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:33 pm

Don't the other pyramids not work because they started building bigger and grander pyramids, Dios's is presumably the only one built to his original specifications.

From p185 of the Corgi Paperback:
There is nothing mystical about the power of Pyramids.
Pyramids are dams in the stream of time. Correctly shaped and oriented, with the proper paracosmic measurements correctly plumbed in, the temporal potential of the great mass of stone can be diverted to accelerate or reverse time over a very small area, ...
After a few aeons people forgot this and thought you could achieve the same effect by a) ritual b) pickling people and c) storing their soft inner bits in jars.
This seldom works.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:48 pm

poohcarrot quoting Terry Pratchett wrote:Page 321
"KHUFT HAD ME MADE. THE FIRST"

The brain cells are very frazzled here today, but surely the ME in that quote is the pyramid itself isn't it? As in the first pyramid, so the doorseal is simply referring to the pyramid, not Dios?

Try it the other way :lol: Khuft had Dios made...? :wink:

Tonyblack wrote:Actually, Dios's pyramid seems different to the others in that it runs time backwards rather than holding time in a 'null' state. This is in keeping with what we learn in an earlier passage in the book which describes the uses of pyramids.

No - they're all the same except in physical dimensions. Dios doesn't die but then he doesn't age or get younger either does he? So he's also marking time exactly like the dead kings, never getting older or younger so his pyramid performs the same function as the others - the pyramids simply preserve time and their 'inmates' never change. As the pyramids also 'leak' into the outside world this does slow time down in the rest of Djelibeybi and makes any significant change impossible especially as Dios is there to keep things going on the same way by building more and more pyramids.

The kings do die and are mummified, so their spirits live on in that inanimate state, whilst their pyramids are working properly. If they're mummies that's how they stay and never leave their tombs. Dios is alive of course and he stays that way and can come and go as he pleases, but as he goes on he wants/needs to use the pyramid more and more, but becomes tired and careless. Taking that point further of him being pyramid-dependant, he keeps having the kings build bigger and bigger pyramids and so Teppic's dad's one is the final straw (that broke the camel's back :P )and sets the whole lot of them off in the Star Trek sense that 'the pyramid cannae take it!' :lol:

That also leads to yet another issue - are the all the pyramids part of a circuit which the great pyramid overloads and sets off a chain reaction when it goes ciritical? Does it's huge power surge blast through all the other pyramids to trigger the mummies into finally walking and talking again? I'm thinking of the way lightning works and channels itself (in Tony's calendar piccy) so maybe there isn't necessarily a permanent linkage at work, but when Ptaclusp A & B try to cap it, the charge they set off hit all the other flares and that not only triggered the massive shift in the temporal plane for the whole valley of the Djel, but also pulled the other pyramids 'online' to pick up the charge and do the Frankenstein things for the mummies too. An interesting theory to ponder anyway :lol:
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:03 pm

Sorry Jan I disagree with this:
No - they're all the same except in physical dimensions. Dios doesn't die but then he doesn't age or get younger either does he? So he's also marking time exactly like the dead kings, never getting older or younger so his pyramid performs the same function as the others - the pyramids simply preserve time and their 'inmates' never change. As the pyramids also 'leak' into the outside world this does slow time down in the rest of Djelibeybi and makes any significant change impossible especially as Dios is there to keep things going on the same way by building more and more pyramids.

The kings do die and are mummified, so their spirits live on in that inanimate state, whilst their pyramids are working properly. If they're mummies that's how they stay and never leave their tombs. Dios is alive of course and he stays that way and can come and go as he pleases, but as he goes on he wants/needs to use the pyramid more and more, but becomes tired and careless. Taking that point further of him being pyramid-dependant, he keeps having the kings build bigger and bigger pyramids and so Teppic's dad's one is the final straw (that broke the camel's back )and sets the whole lot of them off in the Star Trek sense that 'the pyramid cannae take it!'


Dios's pyramid is the only one that runs time backwards (as seen when the torch the King and Gern take in un-burns itself) I think he effectively subtracts each day after he has lived it - the mummies pyramids don't or they would'nt come out of them with the older ones looking more worn and with bandages falling off.

Also wouldn't you expect the flare off of time from all the Pyramids to accelerate time in the rest of the valley not slow it? (Trying to think logically about it)
The time that should have passed in the chamber was stored in the bulk of the pyramid and allowed to flare off once every twenty-four hours.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:12 pm

No Jan - Dios's pyramid is running time backwards. When the embalmers and ancestors enter the pyramid they notice that the torch they are carrying is burning backwards. Dios is ageing normally when outside the pyramid and then, by resting there, he's rejuvenating himself.

As Doughnut Jimmy's quote says, "the temporal potential of the great mass of stone can be diverted to accelerate or reverse time over a very small area" - there's a bit more to that quote which says:
The original builders, who were of course ancients and therefore wise, knew this [about the acceleration or reversal of time] very well and the whole point of a correctly-built pyramid was to achieve absolute null time in the centre chamber so that a dying king, tucked up there, would indeed live forever - or at least, never actually die. The time that was stored in the bulk of the pyramid and allowed to flare off once every twenty-four hours.


So, pyramids were designed as a sort of stasis booth by finding a balance between time accelerating and reversing, but Dios's one is actually reversing time. Otherwise Dios would get older each time he stopped using it. Think of it like Albert who doesn't age while he's in Death's domain, but when he makes a trip outside, he ages normally. :) Albert can't get any younger, but Dios can.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:14 pm

:lol: See DJ agrees with me - and he types faster! :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:35 pm

Good points Jimmy (and Tony) but rewinding and reliving the same day(s) is still effectively marking time in fits and starts over the long term. Dios does stay at roughly the same age by using the tomb like he's rewinding his watch effectively - he's still not getting any older or younger...? :P

I concede the point about the wear and tear on the bandages and stuffing, so how about feeding in the other theory about the great pyramid triggering off the other pyramids to start acting like Dios' one? So that now works like this...

The king's pyramids don't work at all so the mummies all detoriate naturally with their spirits still chained to their mortal remains (Urgh! :evil: ) then when the great pyramid went critical it's blast activated the other flaring pyramids so they then activated and did the Frankenstein thing? :lol:
This would also perhaps explain why they didn't find Khuft (and maybe his immediate descendants) as they'd deteriorated too much in the second, third and fourth etc pyramids maybe and so couldn't be reanimated? :wink:
It also works with Khuft building #1 pyramid for Dios and then building a bigger better pyramid for himself ('cos he was the king and couldn't let his servant get the best one - and in Roundworld the pharoahs did often start work their tombs before they popped their clogs. Rameses certainly did that) or Dios also had one built for Khuft and for the others thus setting off the trend? :o :wink:
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:59 pm

Jan wrote:so how about feeding in the other theory about the great pyramid triggering off the other pyramids to start acting like Dios' one? So that now works like this...


I'm not sure what this bit of your theory is leading to?
I agree the mummies are tied to their bodies and aware to some extent, but I think their reanimation is due to the shift of hte valley out of the constraints of "reality" and so the power of the mummies belief in an active afterlife allows them to move etc.
Whether its just the great pyramid or all of them that achieve this I don't think there's any indication.
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