Night Watch Discussion *spoilers*

[Dotsie]

So as far as Vimes may be aware, before he went back in time, Vetinari may never have worn the lilac. But by the time he got back, Vetinari would have always worn it.

No, because Vimes is outside the loop, and anyway he sees Vetinari wearing the lilac before he goes back - as do we, and we are definitely outside the loop.

You should hear me talking about Star Trek

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

In the "Zen Garden" at the Monkery, there was a used sonky in the mix... the only thing Lu-Tze got upset about was the empty beer bottle. I believe the Used Sonky was a mettyfor about life and death...

[Jan Van Quirm]

In the "Zen Garden" at the Monkery, there was a used sonky in the mix... the only thing Lu-Tze got upset about was the empty beer bottle. I believe the Used Sonky was a mettyfor about life and death...

Aha!

Didn't Vimes throw something trashy into the garden from the street side once he got back to the present? I think it is starting to look like 'Keel' was always older Vimes...

[Dotsie]

Not even close Why wouldn't he remember the peace garden anyway? He didn't know about it before the time loop, so effect followed cause, therefore he hadn't gone back until he went back. Or something.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Yeah but WHEN was the garden?

They had Qu doing his experimental stuff back inna mists of prehistoric Ankh and just because Lu Tze led Sam/Keel to the garden in the 'past' of A-M doesn't mean the garden was in that time span as well. - Why else would Lu Tze get puzzled as to why the beer can was there? The other explanation of that might be that it wasn't there the last time the loop/trousers/quantum event happened...?

The History Monks could have the garden anywhere along the timeline and that might also explain how they retrieved the silver cigar case so quickly too

[Sjoerd3000]

The cigar case came with Vimes when he was transported through time and then got stolen when he arrived in the past. After Vimes has visitid the garden again, Qu says to Lu Tze he can´t mess with time again. So Lu Tze sends out some monks to go and visit corrupt jewellers etc. and try to find the cigar case.

So no time travel was needed to find the cigar case again (I think)

[Dotsie]

Correctamundo

[Jan Van Quirm]

Oh gods I went and lost a post somehow there.
Yes - the History Monks are cops as well so the cigar case was just a question of doing the rounds of the local fences in young Sam's real time.

The rest stands though - the Monks Ankh HQ appears to be pivotal in time (a little like their main home with the same day forever thingie) and rather like a TARDIS in effect. Lu Tze was really wobbly over the beer can, which is why he said that he didn't want to change too many things in their rightful timeline.

That's why I'm putting forward the hypothesis on the basis that Lu Tze brings Vimes/Keel in for briefing in older Sam's real time not in young Sam's? And also why Vimes took such delight in chucking that beer can over the zen garden wall when he was back in his proper place? In fact that scenario pans out intellectually because the Monks can use that 'far real-time present' as a check against how well Commander Vimes is doing back in old-time present...

That Pterry - he's just having a laugh again Now test the hypothesis please Dotsie

[Dotsie]

Dotsie will get back to you.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Sorry to burst your bubble Jan, but I think twas a cigar butt he threw... *digging through her books to find the Blasted Book 'o' the Month*

As I said, I have read that book like 4 times at LEAST! LoL

Edit: Oh dear, as I open the book I come upon someone's Signature quote of Death telling Lord Winder this is it!!! Ack now I have too much to do... Aargh!

Edit: edit:: The last four lines of the book. "He threw his cigar stub over the fence. He heard it land on gravel, which moved a little. And then he went home. And the world turned toward morning." Phew... and No, Vetinari did Not kill Lord Winder, fear did the job for him.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Maybe it was the cigar butt Tina - some bit of trash anyway and Vimes deliberately chose to throw it over into the place where the AM HQ had been/is still when he got back to his rightful time slot and it was the same thing that Lu Tze was puzzled over, seemingly back in the past

Will look for it later myself as I'm struggling with getting my new printer/scanner up and running

[swreader]

Sorry Jan, wrong again. Sam/Keel throws the match and cigar butt down just before he goes back over the wall after his 2nd visit. Lu-Tze has promised to get him something real to hold in his hand. And Sam has promised to take Carcer with him when he leaves. The garden starts to move before he goes over the wall--and it moves because Sam/Keel is taking the required steps. After he goes Lu-Tze says he will send out the monks to find the cigar case, rather than use any further manipulation of time. After Sam/Keel leaves, Lu-Tze tells Qu that he is not moving the garden, and they watch the action of the cigar butt work its way to the center of the Garden of Inner-City Tranquility. This garden does seem to work in the same way as the mandela in Thief of Time.

And as Tina pointed out, Sam throws a new cigar butt down on the way home after catching Carcer and talking with Vetinari at the church yard. And once again, he hears the scaly sound he heard the first time--I suspect the garden moves (like the mandela) again because Commander Vimes has successfully brought Carcer out of the past (and to justice) while Sam/Keel gave the right orders in the old time.

Incidentally, it's a beer bottle that gets thrown, not a beer can.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Nods - OK but the garden can and does move so they can have it any time they need to have it

[kakaze]

We don't know if he was actually wearing the lilac in the original timeline.

Uh-uh. The following conversation happened in the original timeline, just after Vimes arrested Carcer:

Vimes stopped at the entrance gates. Overhead, another lamp flickered. He dropped Carcer to the ground.
“You knew? You bloody well knew, didn't you?”
“Not until, oh, one second ago,” said Vetinari. “As one man to another, commander, I must ask you: did you ever wonder why I wore the lilac?”
“Yeah. I wondered,” said Vimes.
“But you never asked.”
“No. I never asked,” said Vimes shortly. “It's a flower. Anyone can wear a flower.”
“At this time? In this place?”
“Tell me, then.”
“Then I'll recall the day I was sent on an urgent errand,” said Vetinari. “I had to save the life of a man. Not a usual errand for an Assassin although, in fact, I had already saved it once before.” He gave Vimes a quizzical look.
“You'd shot a man who was aiming a crossbow?” said Vimes.
“An inspired guess, commander! Yes. I have an eye for the…unique. But now I was fighting time. The streets were blocked. Chaos and confusion were everywhere, and it wasn't as if I even knew where he could be found. In the end, I took to the rooftops. And thus I came at last to Cable Street, where there was a different sort of confusion.”
“Tell me what you saw,” said Vimes.
“I saw a man called Carcer…vanish. And I saw a man called John Keel die. At least, I saw him dead.”
“Really,” said Vimes.
“I joined the fight. I snatched up a lilac bloom from a fallen man and, I have to say, held it in my mouth. I'd like to think I made some difference; I certainly killed four men, although I take no particular pride in that. They were thugs, bullies. No real skill. Besides, their leader had apparently fled, and what morale they had had gone with him. The men with the lilac, I have to say, fought like tigers. Not skilfully, I'll admit, but when they saw that their leader was down they took the other side to pieces. Astonishing.

As you can see, Vimes had previously "wondered" about Vetinari's habit of wearing the lilac on that day.

About the cigar butt and beer bottle, I think they don't matter. I think Lu Tze just acted annoyed so Vimes would stop persueing a pointless digression to their conversation.

So why didn't Lu Tzu just tell younger Vimes about Carcer and where to find him easily in the future, and avoid having older Vimes & Carcer being sent back in time and getting Keel killed ahead of schedule?

[Tonyblack]

You're right about Vetinari and the lilac - I'd somehow missed that. Bang goes that theory then.