Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:33 pm

Well, one can't know. Discworld is a so crazy place to think coherently, isn't it? :mrgreen:

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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:31 pm

Mixa wrote:Well, one can't know. Discworld is a so crazy place to think coherently, isn't it? :mrgreen:

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Perhaps, but Pterry, at least in the later books, nearly always has some kind of logic behind what seems to be crazy. Rarely does something happen randomly or purely for comic effect. Even a random action will usually have some reference to something else. For example, in Jingo, when Lord Rust is inspecting his troops in the desert, the exposition mentions that the troops had little to eat other than a "rain of boiled lobsters." I see this as a reference to Exodus, where the Lord drops manna from the sky to feed the starving Israelites.
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby RolandItwasntmyfault » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:09 am

raisindot wrote:Re-reading (or "relistening," really) to this and it gets better every time.

One part that still confuses me is the presence of the Octarine while Vimes and Co. are sailing to Klatch. The storm itself is Octarine, but it almost seems to be "intelligent" Octarine. At one point Octarine "hands" seem to grab the wheel, and guide the ship through the storm to safety.

I've always wondered where this came from--it suggests a god of some sort guiding them to safety. There really isn't any evidence beforehand that wizards and any other "magical" beings are on Vimes' side, so one wonders what the motivation was for this "magical assistance" other than the idea that Vimes' own determination set magical forces in motion.


As I remember I always have taken this rather metaphorically, octarine fire which appears and which the human eye forms to something like "hands" and which the human mind forms to something like "huuu, now it is guidung us through the storm, thanks the gods, yippieh!" although the ship manages it out of sheer luck while the octarine fire is a simple natural effect (St. Ugulant's Fire as it is called on discworl). No real thing, not even real "handlike" looking fire, no real guiding, more like if when you say the fire of a lighthouse would be guiding ships into the harbour. So at least I saw this passage.
On the other hand, Terry puts his words very carefully, and as you said seldom at random ... :think:


raisindot wrote:Another thought is that all the stuff they threw overboard to lighten the ship might have been an illusion to myths where people at sea throw virgins overboard to appease the sea gods. Maybe the sea gods are paying back the "gifts" of hundreds of crossbows, a lifeboat, an anchor and chains?


Hm, here I may be biased by my interest of naval history and the British Royal Navy in the age of sail (and reading about it), but ... actually ships threw all possible stuff overboard to get lighter and to fasten either to catch or to escape from an enemie. Especially at second occasion even the cannons has been thrown overboard, freshwater has been pumped into the sea, food and livestock, cows, sheeps, chickens (still alive of course), and yes, anchors and boats, too, if necessary ... this all went overboard simply to increase the speed by a fraction of a knot.
So I was rather familiar with the concept "everything over board!" as I read this text passage.

Indeed, sometimes I got the feeling, Terry too knows some thing or the other about the age of sail, including the totally ignorance of the common landlubber as Vimes turns out to be. :lol:


And yes, the rain of lobsters also reminded me at the manna from sky and what else could Lord Rust get than boiled lobsters. :D
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:55 pm

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:
raisindot wrote:Re-reading (or "relistening," really) to this and it gets better every time.

One part that still confuses me is the presence of the Octarine while Vimes and Co. are sailing to Klatch. The storm itself is Octarine, but it almost seems to be "intelligent" Octarine. At one point Octarine "hands" seem to grab the wheel, and guide the ship through the storm to safety.

I've always wondered where this came from--it suggests a god of some sort guiding them to safety. There really isn't any evidence beforehand that wizards and any other "magical" beings are on Vimes' side, so one wonders what the motivation was for this "magical assistance" other than the idea that Vimes' own determination set magical forces in motion.


As I remember I always have taken this rather metaphorically, octarine fire which appears and which the human eye forms to something like "hands" and which the human mind forms to something like "huuu, now it is guidung us through the storm, thanks the gods, yippieh!" although the ship manages it out of sheer luck while the octarine fire is a simple natural effect (St. Ugulant's Fire as it is called on discworl). No real thing, not even real "handlike" looking fire, no real guiding, more like if when you say the fire of a lighthouse would be guiding ships into the harbour. So at least I saw this passage.
On the other hand, Terry puts his words very carefully, and as you said seldom at random ... :think:


Well, I think the point Pterry was trying to make was that, unlike on Earth, where St. Elmo's fire is just a form of electricity, St. Ugulant's fire is true octarine-based magic. The case for "intelligent magic" helping Vimes & Co is also manifested in the things that fall from the sky--bedsteads, tins of sardines, etc. These are no mere "natural phenomena," suggesting, for whatever reason, that there is either a god or some kind of supernatural presence that is guiding Vimes's boat through the storm. The question is: Why?
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Discworldpadawan » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Halfway through Jingo All! Although I have a query r.e. 71 Hour Ahmed, I haven't got as far as finding out WHY he is called this yet (don't spoil it! :D ), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:50 pm

Discworldpadawan wrote:Halfway through Jingo All! Although I have a query r.e. 71 Hour Ahmed, I haven't got as far as finding out WHY he is called this yet (don't spoil it! :D ), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?


I haven't seen the picture or description, but it has to be a typo and a very bad one at that. His name IS 71 Hour Ahmed, and there is a very specific and important reason for his name. Quite likely whoever edited the Art book was not an avid DW reader, and most likely Pterry himself didn't scrutinize every page to make sure everything was "kosher."
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby =Tamar » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:18 am

It is a typo. The text has a few typos as well, but as far as I know, this is the only one in the pictures.
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Discworldpadawan » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:56 am

Good to get that sorted mentally then! Yes I noticed another error earlier in in Jingo, there was dialog going on between colon and someone else, and then whoever was talking to him referred to him as cohen instead of colon!
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Discworldpadawan » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:16 pm

Well I've finished Jingo now, another hoot of a read yet again! I think this is the watch book that has given me the most laughs to-date :D One that springs to mind, when nobby's in his disguise, and after vetinari's done his juggling display, - "and now the lovely Beti will do an exotic dance", cue moans and groans from the audience, then "how much do we have to pay you for her not to dance"? ! :lol: :lol:
I liked 71 Hour Ahmed again, really didn't see it coming that he was also Klatch's version of a watchman! Are there any discworld books at all that concentrate more on the Klatchian version of the watch?
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby The Mad Collector » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:58 pm

Regrettably the Klatchian Watch never seems to appear again :(
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:33 pm

Discworldpadawan! Every Watch book is unique and better! Get prepared, because if up to now these novels seemed unbeatable, you’ll see they are just the beginning!!!

My advice: keep on reading this series, because having all the details fresh in your memory will make you enjoy it a lot more! :D

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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Discworldpadawan » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:38 pm

That is most deffinately the plan Mixa! I have the fifth elephant on order, but also have "the last hero" here in the house, unread. Very tempting to start reading this, but I really want to hold out and get back to Vimes and Co. when fifth elephant arrives! Decisions, decisions! :lol: :lol: Dissapointing that the Klatchian version of the watch don't get a proper outing all to themselves tho, concentrating around 71-HOUR Ahmed. Maybe something for a future, future book, if Rhianna (terry's daughter) is reading this?! ;)
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby NineTenthsMadness » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:44 pm

I really, really like Jingo. It not only has the start of what I call the "Dark Carrot" Arc (eventually concluded in TFE), but every time I read the climax with Vimes' "Organizer" rattling of the deaths of his companions, shivers run down my back. It's just so effective for what it is, and I cannot even begin to tell you what it is (safe for a huge tear jerker, among other things), but is is something that only works as a literary device because of the Discworld being what it is, and Pterry being who he is. In my opinion this book would simply not work without his writing style, and I cannot even give hard evidence for this fact - simply my feeling.
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Re: Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:15 pm

Oh yes, the Death Roll is a very emotional section. Get's me every time.
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