Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:42 pm

Tony Black wrote:
Have people executed or freed and pardoned.

Exactly! He's always been like a shadowy political figure up till now. He's started to kill openly on page, especially in Raising Steam. In Night Watch, he doesn't kill someone with a sword and only openly dispatches Carcer's company. By the start of Raising Steam, Drumknott is smiling rather disturbingly and opening the door to let him like a cat to murder people! In Night Watch, he only stopped to not spray up against things like a cat. He's also a dog person.

Meanwhile, in RS he's not in Ankh-Morpork, and therefore has no power to change local laws (although I wished he had, for the better). He's in Uberwald, and should be setting a better example to Lady Margolotta, who rescued Vimes once and appears more moral, especially with her pardoning Vampires Reform political movement - the Black Ribboners.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby pip » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:58 pm

I used to find vetinari a bit one dimensional. Pretty much the tyrant behind the desk in black so I for one am delighted he's been fleshed out a bit and some of his actions revealed. It makes him a lot more interesting to be honest. He'd been the same character in every book except Jingo.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby simmonds91 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:18 am

As was mentioned earlier: Anhk Morpork is not 21st century uk. The rulers of the city before Vetinary were stark raving mad, murderous psycopaths in power. you can complain he's killing in the open all you want but that is nowhere near as bad as what the rulers before him got away with though when i say "got away with" I should really say "where allowed to do" because they were the ruler.
In raising steam I think his "murder" was self defence don't you think? the dwarfs that where attacking the train were certainly out to kill.
As a tyrant he carries the city with him I reckon, he IS the city, he is his own jurisdiction and I rather doubt just because lady margalotta made the black ribboners she isn't as cunning and murderous.
Anhk Morpork is basically victorian london, maybe earlier, do you honestly think Vetinari's behaviour as a ruler in our world would be all that strange a century or two ago?
Well, you know what they say. The past is a foreign country - - With an outdated military and huge oil reserves!
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:46 pm

Roundworld's still got more than it's fair share of corrupt rulers and legislature/police depts around and certainly did in the more recent past, even for 'civilised' nations (anyone been watching Ripper Street and all the corruption going on in Victorian London? Ever thought why ex-British colonies have such a bad rep? :evil: )

Churchill, despite his hero status got up to a lot of dubious things in WW2 (and not just within the UK) whilst he was in power so why not Vetinari. Ankh-Morpork with the clacks alone dominates the main continent of Discworld now so why wouldn't he mess with 'foreign' policy?
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 pm

Churchill, despite his hero status got up to a lot of dubious things in WW2 (and not just within the UK) whilst he was in power

Mm-mm. I don't watch some documentaries, so I wouldn't know. (-:

Anyway, I read about this solicitor/law firm in early France C17th and the crimes were mostly on par with Ankh-Morpork 'suicide'. Vetinari's actions (but I think Vetinari didn't join the upper classes when he became a Lord after Patrician, I think he's still labour-conservative and middle-to-elite class) are similar to the emerging middle classes; hiring bodyguards, hiring spies, relaxing morals on spies and talking about having them openly, having relations with a Prostitute class/guild but having no visible mistress/partner, etc. He shows up as newly elite-changed-to-upper class sometimes with his behaviour and increasing insanity problem, which started just after G!G!. He's pure introvert during the aforementioned book, but after Carrot gets to him he goes mad and behaves friendly, but extrovert. Somewhat friendlier. He's still (metaphorically) big and powerful and waving, lots of waving.

Perhaps I'm getting too worried about the man. (-:
Last edited by Slantaholic on Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby simmonds91 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:05 am

It would be one hell of a plot twist if it turned out the guy really was insane. I don't agree with you're view of the man but it would make a damn epic read, have the watch investigate corruption in the palace all secret like and uncover various things and wow! it turns out Terry had planned out the situation, the story of his downfall from the very beginning? that would be awesome. if it was true, alas i don't see what you see Slantaholic.
Well, you know what they say. The past is a foreign country - - With an outdated military and huge oil reserves!
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:41 pm

Certainly Vetinari's been an exceedingly lucid and sane lunatic all along as he's behaved like a traditional and highly successful despot for most of the Discworld timeline I believe :twisted: And totally true to charactisation since we first saw him in Sourcery (when Coin turned him into a lizard? :lol: ) Also Terry says that he's been the Patrician since CoM complete with the candied echinoderms so he's always been on the eccentric side :lol:

It's Discworld so he's had to be a political juggler and, because he's in an elevated position, he's always bent and reinvented the rules to his own ends (using the rats to escape from his own dungeon, keeping Leonard of Quirm in 'safe' custody, making Vimes go on leave in Thud etc) so I find it very hard to think of him of being insane at all, most especially in his treatment and constant manipulation of Moist who's the nearest thing to a peer for him (a human one anyway except perhaps the crossword lady) - but I haven't read Raising Steam yet so maybe there's something in it.

The point about him being from the middle classes though :roll: Not likely I'd say. In Nightwatch when we see him at the Assassin's Guild still he's a little like Edward De'ath - impoverished gentry more and extremely intelligent and ruthless as a result, as a way to get back on top with the help of his 'auntie' with the highly dubious reputation from Genua. In Roundworld most aristocracy can trace their origins back to ambitious murderers, thieves and whores who were at the top of their game (or friends with the right successful thugs... :P ) so it's even more so on the Disc. ;)

We are all rising apes who are not very noble on the way up remember! :P
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:09 pm

Thank you, simmonds91 and Jan Van Quirm.

I'm writing a short Vetinari fanfiction at the moment, and indeed he is bit, uh, eccentric before he starts daydreaming about Drumknott. (-:
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:42 am

Have fun with the fanfic Slant - Vetinari's a great character to play around with! :lol:

With the Churchill refs I was thinking mainly of incidents in the Caribbean in the '30s, when ships carrying rich refugee Jews were refused entry to various ports in British territories (then) and ended up being sent back to Germany. Also various campaigns in the Balkans in WW2, although that was more to do with support of resistance groups with dubious peace time connections... :roll:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby =Tamar » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:04 pm

Slantaholic wrote: life was hell, especially what I read was rumoured about 17th century London. People relied on passer-bys to prevent murders, like herd instinct.


There was literally no police force then. Even in the late 19th century and early 20th century, it was standard for a man to carry a cane/club/cudgel to protect himself. It was only in the mid-1950s that we began to have some expectation of being able to go to town without being attacked randomly.

Slantaholic wrote: Vetinari.... behaviour and increasing insanity problem, which started just after G!G!. He's pure introvert during the aforementioned book, but after Carrot gets to him he goes mad and behaves friendly, but extrovert. Somewhat friendlier. He's still (metaphorically) big and powerful and waving, lots of waving.
Perhaps I'm getting too worried about the man. (-:


Vetinari is a manipulator with a vision. His vision is a functioning City. He will do whatever is necessary to keep control of the city in such a way that it continues as a successful entity, not being taken over by invaders, not being taken over and turned into a serfdom by the rich and officially-noble, not becoming a totally poverty-stricken area ruled by the crimelords because the rich and the shopkeepers have fled. So he keeps the city just safe enough that the rich stay, just free enough that the intelligent feel they can stay rather than flee, and prosperous enough that there is a large middle class who feel safer and better-off there than elsewhere. So if it takes a few tyrant-like arrests and imprisonments, a few quiet assassinations (he _is_ an Assassin), a few promotions of honest cops who seem to be making the rich uneasy, etc - he'll do it. He'll appear at the clicks (though he was a bit puzzled about all the social effects), hold a party, drink beer with the foot-the-ball team leaders, personally talk about innovations with the inventors, and if necessary, wave to the crowd. Faced with a charismatic heir to the defunct throne, he even manages to use Carrot to create Vimes as the equivalent of the Council of Barons (Magna Carta), the nobles who would weaken even a charismatic king's grip (should Carrot ever take over). Now he's training Moist in the art of civic control. Carrot did his darnedest to take over the Watch as his personally sworn army. He failed, but Vimes is about the same age as Vetinari and won't live forever. So Vetinari has trained Moist and given him control of the money, communications ( the mail and the clacks - technically Spike has the clacks, but they're a couple), and now transportation. It's practically modern France, except that it's one man instead of the government. And people like Moist more than they like Carrot, because Carrot is only liked while people are within his charismatic influence - people like Moist even when he isn't there.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:09 am

Just a point of order on policing London in centuries past.

17th C - yes no police force. We were too busy getting our religious and political wars done with thank you very much.
18th C - finished off getting our own back on the French for helping to lose us N. America and got stuck into milking the West Indies instead in the first half. Second half - got to the stage where Vetinari is, so someone called Robert Peel established a police force that became the core of the Metropolitan Police (HQ Great Scotland Yard) and very gradually started to bring lawless areas of Central and East London into order by knocking down slums to build railways stations and sending the criminal element (bread thieves, and small-time hookers and housebreakers) to newer far-flung colonies like Australia, or India and the China Seas if they were only taking the Queen's shilling or had been gang-pressed into the navy.

19th C - early parts still teaching the colonies how to find ways for cashing in their mineral resources for dairy farming and other impractical ways to start 'native' insurgency wars and general graft and bribery cultures into port areas. Police forces introduced to said colonies to ensure we had a constant destination for re-destributing our inner-city criminals but shortly didn't need to do that any more courtesy of the Kaiser... Post Great War - upper classes discover other A-class drugs like cocaine during the jazz, era but go back to that good ole Victorian favourite morphine/heroin in time for Great War Pt 2 when the eastern colonies decide it's time for payback for having to learn to play cricket and football (not rugby 'cos that's just fighting fun). Police now have to contend with smartarse fictional crime fighters like Sherlock Holmes and, worst of all, Miss Marple who show them up something chronic when they have to venture out of traffic control comfort zones.

A policeman's lot is not a happy one, but they are men of the city and have been around for quite a long time actually trying to make the streets safeish for the people who pay their wages.
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby kizkiz » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:32 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:18th C - , so someone called Robert Peel established a police force that became the core of the Metropolitan Police (HQ Great Scotland Yard) .


Given that Robert peel was only born in 1788 and established the metropolitan police in 1829, I think you've got your centuries slightly muddled :lol:
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:05 pm

Whoops - I pasted it to the wrong place! :lol:

Let's try that again -

18th C - got rid of the papist Stuarts and invited the German branch of the family back in. Finished off getting our own back on the French for helping to lose us N. America and got stuck into milking the West Indies instead.

19th C - got to the stage where Vetinari is, so someone called Robert Peel established a police force that became the core of the Metropolitan Police (HQ Great Scotland Yard) and very gradually started to bring lawless areas of Central and East London into order by knocking down slums to build railways stations and sending the criminal element (bread thieves, and small-time hookers and housebreakers) to newer far-flung colonies like Australia, or India and the China Seas if they were only taking the Queen's shilling or had been gang-pressed into the navy.

late 19th/20th C - early parts still teaching the colonies how to find ways for cashing in their mineral resources for dairy farming and other impractical ways to start 'native' insurgency wars and general graft and bribery cultures into port areas. Police forces introduced to said colonies to ensure we had a constant destination for re-destributing our inner-city criminals but shortly didn't need to do that any more courtesy of the Kaiser... Post Great War - upper classes discover other A-class drugs like cocaine during the jazz, era but go back to that good ole Victorian favourite morphine/heroin in time for Great War Pt 2 when the eastern colonies decide it's time for payback for having to learn to play cricket and football (not rugby 'cos that's just fighting fun). Police now have to contend with smartarse fictional crime fighters like Sherlock Holmes and, worst of all, Miss Marple who show them up something chronic when they have to venture out of traffic control comfort zones.
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