The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:04 pm

You only found out about that at the end of the LotR when Frodo and Bilbo sailed into the West ;) Gandalf wore Varya,the Ring of Fire :lol: which passed to him via Cirdan of the Grey Havens (Mithlond). :P
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Who's Wee Dug » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:You only found out about that at the end of the LotR when Frodo and Bilbo sailed into the West ;) Gandalf wore Varya,the Ring of Fire :lol: which passed to him via Cirdan of the Grey Havens (Mithlond). :P

Bah erse! I will need to look at my DVD as I missed that. Image
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:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:08 am

Jan Van Quirm, very useful skills in daily life, I reckon :D

I need to reread HOME, don't remember it well. I know, by the way, that many of Tolkien's books like Silm and History were being published by his son Christopher after JRR death. Thank you for informative spoilers again, you are like an encyclopedia! Is there anything you don't know about Middle-Earth?! :D

And yes, the final of The Hobbit must be great. The Battle of the Five Armies and deaths of Thorin and Fili with Kili (I hope I wrote their names in a right way, I'm too lazy to check :D), and Glorfindel! I almost forgot that he was there! The only one Mandos couldn't stand for too long :) I was a bit disappointed of his absence in the LOTR, so I really want to see him in The Hobbit at last, but I'm very doubt of that, because I think if it is so, we would have already known.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:37 pm

Leewerrey wrote:Thank you for informative spoilers again, you are like an encyclopedia! Is there anything you don't know about Middle-Earth?! :D

:lol: Well at least I'm a Tolkien geek, rather than a 'purist', which is another name for canon nazi in online Middle Earth circles, as I'm currently in the doghouse with the self-styled experts on one community for not hating/condemning Sylvester McCoy's hoopy take on Radagast - or having the vapours with disgust at his sled-bunnies :P :roll: I'm pretty good with Elves but I'm a real charlatan on 'the Lore' compared to some - I certainly keep well away from learned debate on the forums! :shifty: :whistle:

Yeah - I think Glorfindel is a lost cause in a PJ movie really. From what we've been hearing, it looks like they're beefing up the section where the Dwarves get imprisoned by the Woodelves with this newly-created Red Sonya-alike captain of the guard (Tauriel?) which ought to be interesting provided they don't have Legolas making sheep's eyes at her... :doh:

I'm wondering as well whether they'll send Orlando Bloom to Dol Guldur :| Personally I wouldn't like that too much and it would really go against the dynamics of the Silvan Elves and those of Lorien or Rivendell, because of the ancient feud with the Noldor. Also within Thranduil's own family, as his father Oropher and Celeborn, who were probably close cousins, fell out when they moved into Lothlorien in Second Age and there was a major splinter group that left in high dudgeon to set up the colony in Greenwood/Mirkwood - Dol Guldur was originally their territory until the Necromancer moved in later in the Third Age and the rot began to set in from that point, a few thousand years before PJ has it with Radagast making the discovery. Yet another reason for major wailing and gnashing of teeth with the 'faithful-or-die' faction. :lol:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Sister Jennifer » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:29 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote: :lol: Well at least I'm a Tolkien geek, rather than a 'purist', which is another name for canon nazi in online Middle Earth circles, as I'm currently in the doghouse with the self-styled experts on one community for not hating/condemning Sylvester McCoy's hoopy take on Radagast - or having the vapours with disgust at his sled-bunnies


Doghouse eh? Please don't think I'm one of those people. Regarding my comment on the previous page, if you noticed it, I was mainly curious as to the why of it more than anything else. I've read The Hobbit a few times but it's been more than 10 years since I read LOTR, so clearly, an expert I am not.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Quatermass » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:39 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote: :lol: Well at least I'm a Tolkien geek, rather than a 'purist', which is another name for canon nazi in online Middle Earth circles, as I'm currently in the doghouse with the self-styled experts on one community for not hating/condemning Sylvester McCoy's hoopy take on Radagast - or having the vapours with disgust at his sled-bunnies :P :roll:


W***ers. While I didn't imagine Radagast to be quite as scatterbrained as he turned out in the movie, I could accept it, especially as it was Sylvester McCoy playing it.

These are the sort of fans who give other fans a bad name. What they should do is go down to the pharmacy, get some Viagra, and it'll help them go f*** themselves.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:01 pm

Radaghast... I think he is a bit too much clown-like in the movie, but how can I hate him with his bunnies? :) I think he is interesting in his own way, a fortiori I don't remember much about him, I'm not an expert as you can see, but I'm very fond of Tolkien. And it's funny thing, here in Russia Tolkien's geeks are called Tolkienisty and it is something like a kind of subculture :)

Actually, I would like to see Glorfindel one day, but I suppose I won't until the Silmarillion movie :D Or maybe he will be in TH in case if Rivendell elves will go to Dol Guldur, but as another 'oh, look at this pretty faced blondy elf with a big sword' :D
I'm really looking forward to the scene where the dwarves were captured by Thranduil's elves. But I have some worries about their escaping on barrels, because according to the trailer they put Azog in there. But anyway, it's only a details :) I'm suspicious of Tauriel, as I said before, because I have no what does she suppose to do, or why do they need her, but I hope this character will be interesting :)

'faithful-or-die' faction XD I will remember that! :D
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:05 pm

Sister J - you could never be a canon nazi ;) You have a sense of humour for starters :dance:

Middle Earth fandom is a wonderfully weird place where people's sense of reality tends to get very blurred, contrasting with very rigid views on how 'The Master' went about writing up his world. Online debates tend to get very heated and there's a very clear demarcation between the film lovers/gamers and 'canon' book fans and very little tolerance between the extremist camps on those lines. :shifty: :lol:

Fact is Tolkien could write passionately about landscapes and settings (emotional as well as physical - think of how Strider/Aragorn was introduced into the LotR at the Prancing Pony), but wasn't too great at conveying personality for all but his key characters (Sam Gamgee's and his relationship with Frodo is arguably the best example of this, or possibly Gimli and Legolas :P ). For that, seen justly, he's not the perfect writer of fiction (not fantasy per se) but his strong grasp of conceptual themes mitigates any shortcomings to rightly place him amongst the literary greats where he'll be joined, come the melancholy day, by our Pterry. So I don't worship him as a writer so much as thoroughly admire him, including his 'warts', which some Tolkien fans are totally unable to do, to the extent that nothing would satisfy them in any adaptations but complete, almost slavish, adherence to his published dialogue and the main storylines, even where Tolkien himself was not above tweaking, vascillating wildly, or changing his mind altogether (the arrival of the wizards in ME varies by about 2,000 years and the Glorfindel who scared the willies out of the Witchking of Angmar in LotR is not necessarily Glorfindel the Balrog-slayer in the Sil... :roll: ).

With Radagast, seen from a roleplay perspective, the scope for interpretation is massive as he has no 'voice' in either TH or LotR and is only mentioned a few times and very scantily indeed in the rest of the companion books, none of which I regard as mainstream fiction - I think the Silmarillion may as well be a text book in most places as I only tend to use it for reference purposes, or as a sovereign cure for insomnia when I'm really desperate. :P So, from a purely theatrical approach, Radagast's almost an clean sheet since Tolkien laid down the potential for him to be a completely feral wizard with no real interest in the 'sentient' population of ME by having Gandalf describe him as friend to birds and animals and not intruding into the affairs of Men, Elves and the rest. The Ents might have been the exception to this, but then with Radagast being based in Mirkwood, it's likely that the Ents had all been driven out (or the Entwives made extinct, as this was also within the territories they were thought to have moved eastwards into when they left Fangorn) when the Necromancer began to despoil Greenwood and drove the Elves into the far north-east of the forest.

So he's very much a 'stand alone' wizard even down to his Valinor 'sponsor', Yavanna the Earth Mother equivalent in the Middle Earth pantheon (Gandalf was the servant of Manwe (Jove equivalent) and Saruman of Aule (so Vulcan) - also of Sauron in the very beginning interestingly... :shifty:) so in that respect Radagast's more to do with nature and the 'sanctity' of the land. So why not have him very eccentric, exceedingly tolerant of bird poo (you should have heard the shrieks about that! :lol: ) and BFF to hedgehogs and clever bunnies or hares? Certainly fits right in with having Saruman openly contemptuous of his skills and Gandalf barely thinking about him enough to call on him in a crisis I'd have thought... ;)

I think the Silmarillion would make an absolutely brilliant film or an even better Game of Thrones style serial as there are so many aesthetic holes to fill in and 'lore' to interpret, but whether the Tolkien Estate will tolerate any more cavalier messing with the 'Bible of Middle Earth' is another matter. It probably won't happen in Christopher Tolkien's lifetime I suspect, but I hope someone somewhere is seriously thinking about dramatising it because there's some cracking fantasy to realise in there that could do with pixie dust - so long as it's not Disney's (well maybe their money... ;) ) :D
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:10 am

yes, I'm completely agree with you! Tolkien's fans can be absolutely deranged defending their opinions about how it should be or even about how it is, because in spite of the fact that Tolkien made a very detailed universe, he couldn't consider everything. For example, I saw a furious battle once devoted to a question about agriculture of orcs :D And some Tolkien's fans, here I agree with you too, simply don't able to admit any roughness in his works and sometimes their obstinacy becomes incredible and even face-palming in some ways :D But it is still amazing how deep and rich his universe is.
(And I want to belive that it is the same Glorfindel :snooty: )

I've heard a lot of shrieks about Radagast at all, including wails about poo :lol: And I don't really understand people who hate him. I don't like all in his looks or behaviour, to be honest, but to hate? Or to be so out-and-out about him? Everyone can have their own opinions or designs about him, including PJ, and he decided to make Radagast like this, so be it, really, why not? :shifty:

Yes, Silmarillion should be a serial only (or a lot of films wich will have been releasing for about a hundred years time period :lol: ) and it definitly won't be in Christopher's lifetime, howsoever unplesant it is.
Disney? Oh, no, I can even imagine arias of Morgoth or Fёanor and I think that will be pursue me in nightmares from now :lol:
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:22 pm

Leewerrey wrote:(And I want to belive that it is the same Glorfindel :snooty: )

I think it is - certainly Tolkien went to some lengths to try and integrate him in Unfinished Tales and spawned the 'sanctity' aspect of the elven souls who had lived in Middle Earth then re-incarnated in Valinor and how they couldn't risk leaving the Blessed Shores without compromising their shiny refurbished spirits. :P If Balrog-killer Glorfindel is the same as the Nazguls' bogey-elf then this embargo wouldn't necessarily apply to him, because he would likely have been born in Valinor and so already had the 'acquired' spiritual resilience and, having atoned for the Noldor rebellion by his heroic actions in the Fall of Gondolin, that would have saved him from the curse of Mandos on the elves who took Feanor's oath and damned to remain in limbo until the end of the world... :roll: :lol:

That's the canon I accept anyway and the LotR Glorfindel is supposed to have been sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf's companion/henchman at the beginning of the Third Age after the Last Alliance in one version, which does get over the situation for a Glorfindel who had survived into the Second Age and presumably been an ambiguous guardian of Gil-galad and Elrond as surviving descendants of grandpa Fingolfin, so the 1st solution holds more narrative plausibility, purely from a storytelling perspective ;)

I think the Silmarillion as a high end screen serial deserves a thread of it's own so I'll get on that in a minute and we can then stay mostly on Hobbit topics in here :whistle:
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:02 pm

Anyway, the poor bloke has been ignored even in Ralph Bakshi's animated version of LOTR, there was Legolas instead of hi. as I remember

Jan Van Quirm wrote:I think the Silmarillion as a high end screen serial deserves a thread of it's own so I'll get on that in a minute and we can then stay mostly on Hobbit topics in here


I think it's quite a good idea because we've written indecently much here and it seems that we scared all other people :lol:
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