The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Sister Jennifer » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:04 am

=Tamar wrote:
Sister Jennifer wrote:Also, the glimpse of Smaug at the end of the 1st movie, it doesn't look like he has the red eyes. One of my everlasting impressions of Smaug is his red eyes being quite menacing & unsettling.

In the teaser that was linked, his eyes were orangey red and glowing in the dark.


I didn't see past the end credit before :think: . I like his grin but does he look a bit like the dinosaurs from King Kong?

Was thinking the eyes more like this, but fair do's.

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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:36 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Yeah, but it's not like he invented dragons. :P

Definitely not! :lol: Tolkien's dragons are all sourced from Norse myth and they don't all breathe fire or fly necessarily. The one that did most magic (in the Silmarrillion) was Glaurung, a wingless, fire breather who specialised in wiping memories and started a tragic incestuous Arthurian storyline for one of the great heroes Turin Turambar (Mordred's supposed to be Arthur's son by half-sister Morgana in one legend).

Tolkien 'borrowed' all over the shop for Middle Earth, with Atlantean myth featuring as well with his devastating tsunami running from a recurring dream he used to have and used twice in the Sil to destroy part of Middle Earth and the island kingdom of Westernesse (Lyonnesse anyone? :roll: ) that Aragorn's ancestors came from.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:44 pm

And dragons, specifically red and white dragons are part of Welsh mythology including the story of Merlin. It's why there is a red dragon on the Welsh flag.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:16 pm

:lol: Yeah - Tolkien also loved the Welsh language. He heavily based one of his Elvish languages, Sindarin, the clan Thranduil and Legolas were leaders of, on the Brythonic branch :P

Nothing's new, but to be fair Tolkien deliberately set out to make Middle Earth a wholly British manufactured mythology, and so it was only logical to use mainly pre-Roman cultural sources (so the Celts) and some post-occupation incoming elements like the Saxons and Viking, particularly for deities like Wodens and Odin, as there's also strong parallels there with Odin's ordeal on Yggdrasil (shades of Gandalf's 'remaking' after the fight with the Balrog) and the Saxon and Gothic languages in which Tolkien was a world authority as a Professor of Philology. He based the language of Rohan and Mordor respectively on those two 'dead' languages :lol:

Actually that methodology isn't a million miles away from how Terry does some of his 'god construction', though of course Tolkien being a committed Catholic had to be a bit more Holy Joe with the good/evil dichotomies :twisted:
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Conforumist » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:17 am

So, are there only 2 movies? I thought it was changed to 3? The 1st one was really f'd up. I don't have big hopes for the next one: And I hope it's the last. I'm angry because I'm a big fan. There was not need for all the stupidity in the 1st one.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby michelanCello » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:10 am

There will be three movies (Unexpected Journey, Desolation of Smaug, There and Back Again) :) I loved the first one and hope the 2nd will be as good, if not better... can't wait, can't wait :D
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:35 am

Aw, The Hobbit! I really love Tolkien's universe at all, but 'The Hobbit' book is my last favourite from all of his other works, I don't know why, maybe because of some translation aspects, but I'm not sure. And yeah, I think I love this movie at all, it was more interesting for me than the book and I'm waiting for the next part too. But I think it was a bit strange decision to make three movies out of one thin book. But anyway, will see :)
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:39 pm

The Hobbit's the oldest of the 'mainstream' Middle Earth series - published in the late 1930s and largely written for the childrens market. Because Tolkien worked on his fantasy environment in what some would term a 'haphazard' manner some parts of The Silmarillion (less so with Lord of the Rings) were in existence before TH and some were working in or revised after TH was published. LOTR was therefore mostly worked around TH and expanded the Gollum storyline so it connected with the timeline for LOTR, roughly covering Gollum finding the Ring, but also charting the 2 thousand odd years before he (well, his ill-fated friend Deagol) fished it out of the Great River. This in turn fitted into the 'great' stories of the Sil that told of the Elves earlier clashes with Sauron in the First and Second Ages and the Akallabeth (a section of the Sil) that dealt with the ancient culture of Numenor and the ancient ancestors of Aragorn (descended from Elrond's twin brother).

Spoilers ahoy on how they're going to make 2 more movies!!!!

Spoiler: show
So there are three distinct plot threads that the movies are weaving into the one slim volume of The Hobbit and my best guess is that the next movie will concentrate on what's essentially the 'historical' prequel for TH - how Smaug destroyed the Lonely Mountain and blitzed Dale and Esgaroth on which Lake Town stands and how the map and the key were saved from the smoking ruins of the Dwarf kingdom of Erebor by Thorin's father and grandfather and their exile and fatal run-in with Azog the Goblin. From the book, I'd expect them to cover the action from the Carrock and Beorn's house through to their escape from the Wood Elves and maybe arriving in Lake Town and meeting the Master (Stephen Fry).

Movie 3 will likely concentrate on getting rid of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies, all in the book of course - PJ lurves his battle scenes remember! ;) and the 'padding' will be the unwritten side adventure of Gandalf that never made it into the principal books at all. This is probably the most dreaded or anticipated section of the 'whole' story as it deals with the beginning of Saruman's treachery as he gets too close to the Necromancer and fails to let Gandalf, Radagast, Elrond and Galadriel and warrior hubby Celeborn in on his discovery, as they attempt to kick the nasssty ole Sorceror out of Dol Guldur. This is the missing piece of the book where Gandalf slopes off to when he leaves the Dwarves & Bilbo before they enter Mirkwood (missing out on the spider bit and Thranduil taking them prisoner) up until the Wood Elves show up with him in tow at the Lonely Mountain). The Siege of Dol Guldur will be a very different sort of battle between the big shot magic-wielders with the Ringwraiths pitching in as well and the High Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien kicking orc-butts very soundly indeed.

I won't say who the Necromancer really is even though you may be able to guess from the above... :twisted:


So essentially there's more storyline than you think, but whether it's enough to occupy another six hours or thereabouts of action is another matter - expect long battle sequences though... :dance:
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Willem » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:12 pm

Tonyblack wrote:And dragons, specifically red and white dragons are part of Welsh mythology including the story of Merlin. It's why there is a red dragon on the Welsh flag.

Hold on, is my picture a symbol of Wales? :shock:
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:03 pm

Willem wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:And dragons, specifically red and white dragons are part of Welsh mythology including the story of Merlin. It's why there is a red dragon on the Welsh flag.

Hold on, is my picture a symbol of Wales? :shock:

Seriously? Did you not know that was the Welsh Dragon?

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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Ghost » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:15 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Willem wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:And dragons, specifically red and white dragons are part of Welsh mythology including the story of Merlin. It's why there is a red dragon on the Welsh flag.

Hold on, is my picture a symbol of Wales? :shock:

Seriously? Did you not know that was the Welsh Dragon?

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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Sister Jennifer » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:53 am

:D Willem ;)

I wouldn't normally but, there were parts of the 1st movie that I thought were just awful, i.e Radagast. Why did they make him like that? He's the same race as Gandalf & Co, so he's wise & powerful but why the bumbling eco guy with birdsh*t down his face? And that sled! It made me cringe, what a waste of a good actor as well.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Leewerrey » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Jan Van Quirm, I knew that, actually, maybe not as good as you, but I have read almost all Tolkien's books including 'Unfinished Tales', 'Children Of Hurin' and 'The Silmarillion' three or four times (it is hard to read it only first ten times, as they say :D) and I read TH after reading LOTR and ' The Silmarillion', I enjoyed the story, but less than the works that I mentioned before. And speaking about films I want to say that I think LOTR is a really good one, even if it is not as amazing as the book for me. That's why I loved 'The Hobbit' film more than the book, I absolutely felt in love with the colours and picture in general, and the dwarves are more distinctive in there... But anyway I can't get rid of feeling that PJ may fill 'The Hobbit' with some unnecessary things like gigantic amount of battle scenes, or very long dialoges or even new characters (yes, I am very suspicious at this Tauriel XD). But I didn't know much about wanderings of Gandalf, so thank you for the spoilers ;) May be it will be enough to fulfill another parts, only PJ knows that :) So we will partly see this in winter :D
P.S. And yes, I know who the Necromancer is. He is that very disagreeable Maia who lost a simple gold ring :D
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:35 pm

:lol: Indeed he is Leewerrey - at that period of his career he'd fallen back on his earlier specialism of raising the dead! ;)

The 2 extra story arcs, especially Thorin's father and grandfather's plot, are mostly discussed in the less readable books from the 12 volume History of Middle Earth (HOME) which is basically Christopher Tolkien's reassembling of his father's copious notes and revisions of early manuscripts for the 'proper' books, that were already in print or being worked on before Tolkien Snr died. The Sil was published after Tolkien passed on of course, but a lot of it had been written by then in various editions that Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay pulled from his archive material. HOME includes some work that had made it into print in Lost Tales or Unfinished Tales, but not necessarily as Tolkien had passed it for publication, as he was constantly revising things whilst trying to get the Silmarillion prepared for the printers, so some it was 'out there' but more detail (some very obscure and frankly not too exciting) stayed in the notes until Christopher T really got down to archiving it all.

More specific spoilers ;)
Spoiler: show
The fact that Tolkien hadn't really got much published on those plotlines doesn't mean that there's not much material to use because with him there always is, but to some extent you have to know where to look, because The Hobbit is, of all the Middle Earth books a stand alone novel almost. Although the LotR was mostly written around it, it doesn't actually link up too well with the Silmarillion at all, but the material from the Peoples of Middle Earth (last of the HOME books) does carry the sketch of Thror and Thrain's adventures after the fall of Erebor/the Lonely Mountain, and how Gandalf came to retrieve the map and the key that Thorin brings to the party at Bilbo's house, so there is some narrative for PJ and Phippa Boyens to adapt or elaborate on there.

The siege of Dol Guldur is referred to LotR in passing as the start of Saruman's treachery, but is tenuous within the canon as Tolkien didn't write up too much about it except to say that Elrond and Celeborn (Galadriel's husband) met with Gandalf and Radagast at Rhosgobel and drove the Necromancer out of the stronghold, but that he left several of the Nazgul behind under the leadership of Khamal (the only named Nazgul). In fact some Tolkien academics can argue quite successfully that he never actually said where Rhosgobel was in Mirkwood, but it's placed near the Old Forest Road (that eventually leads to the Carrock) in the map in the LotR, which does work in with where Gandalf would have left Bilbo and the Dwarves to go by the 'ill-tended' forest path that goes through the more north-westerly section of Mirkwood and passes the enchanted river and, of course, the stronghold of Thranduil, where he ruled a small part in the north-east of the great forest.
Celeborn was one of the senior Sindarin Lords and close kin to Thranduil and his son Legolas and they all were effectively vassals of Elrond through his mother's line of descent from the Sindarin High King, Thingol, Lord of Doriath and Overlord of Beleriand. Galadriel, although a big hitter in the White Council as the ranking noble of the Noldor (although technically Elrond outranked her through his paternal grandmother's line), also had a crucial tactical role to play in planning the siege, but that's probably where the ME canon nazis are going to be squealing over most, since Thranduil's people loathed the Noldor and in fact were barely on talking terms, even with Celeborn, after the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age and the first fall of Mordor.

As the 3 elven ring-wielders Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond's role in the siege would have been the lynchpins of the White Council's tactics (although those rings couldn't be used for offense or war), but Tolkien never actually fleshed out the details except to say that Saruman barely played any part except to give some minimal advice and that Radagast and Celeborn also took part so, from that there's not a lot to suggest a pitched blood and gore battle took place, but I'm sure that PJ will manage to get around that a little bit, as the Necromancer would have brought the 9 ringwraiths into the equation.


The big 'traditional' battle will be the Battle of the Five Armies of course and that most definitely will be the spectacular finale so I think with the fun in Mirkwood as per the book there ought to be enough material to pad out 2 more films, but the die-hard purists won't like it... :snooty:

I'm really looking forward to parts 2 & 3 and, like you enjoyed the LotR Trilogy, even most of the bits where liberties were taken with the book so the ladies could have a bit more to do. ;) I'm hoping that we might finally get to see the ultimate elven warrior Glorfindel in action at Dol Guldur at least, as we know he lived in Rivendell with Elrond and had already fought the Witchking of Angmar (chief nazgul) - he's a balrog-slayer so would be well worth watching prodding some orc-buttock! He got his bit in the LotR axed in favour of Arwen getting Frodo across the river Bruinen to safety :evil:
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Postby Who's Wee Dug » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:35 pm

Interesting as always Jan your knowledge of LOTR etc. I did not know the Gandalf was a ring bearer at one time or if I did I had certatinly forrogotten. :mrgreen:
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