Pope Resigns

[raptornx01]

*ear twitch*

[Sister Jennifer]

I often wonder what is so good about being a priest that makes the ones who aren't child molesters stay silent. It can't be a belief in God. If they truly believed they would stand up & speak out on this most heinous of crimes.

I was educated in the catholic system. I stopped believing in God the day a priest rubbed his hand on my upper thigh during 'confession'. When I told my teacher, a nun, she caned the bejesus out of me.

It's all bollocks. Every word of it.

[raptornx01]

In all honesty. there are alot of good priests out there. for every pedo priest there are hundreds more, just going about their daily lives. Trying to do good by the world. and believe they are helping people. and many that actually do, and not just in a spiritual sense. I'm not a religious person, or a church goer. But i can respect the work of many that i have seen. the ones who help their communities. the ones who feed the poor, the ones who truly help those in need, or help the local children. or even the ones that simply show their respect to everyone, even those that may not believe the way they do, or even not at all. Its hard to not the have respect for someone that respects my own personal beliefs though they don't share them.

It's easy to lump them all in with the ones who hurt people. but they just aren't all like that.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Whilst there's some truth in what you say Raptorn the problem certainly in the UK and especially in Eire was the institutional culture of abuse with children and teens, particularly young pregnant girls, who were in the day to day care of nuns especially but also priests in schools or orphanages, of which there were a lot more of back in the 60's and 70's (because of said pregnant teens).

And it's the same excuse as with the Jimmy Savile scandal - it wasn't necessarily seen as strange for adults to be alone with kids and so abuse was easy for unscrupulous individuals. Also with the catholics I think there's less instances of sex abuse than people may think - certainly from my own experience it was physical and mental/emotional abuse amongst the nuns at the schools I attended at least, but with both priests and nuns there was a culture of alcoholism that probably greatly added to the physical danger of exaggerated violence against children and vulnerable adults (like the mentally disabled) in the care of the church. Like Jen's saying, I've no doubt sexual abuse took place, but I doubt it was any more widespread than in non-catholic or secular care establishments. The scariest thing I think would have been that the abuse would have been more likely to have terrifying sadistic twists to it, as these maniacs would have used their 'authority' in a punitive way and systematically tortured kids emotionally, making them feel dirty and vile and scared for their immortal souls - that kind of bollocks and all excused by 'doing the Lord's work' in forcing them to atone for their 'sins'.

It really does beggar belief especially when one of the most popular quotes from the Bible in catholic run schools is Jesus' teaching to 'suffer little children to come unto me' - no prizes for guessing where the emphasis for that one got assigned...

[Watchman44]

More power, better perks......

[raptornx01]

I'm going to miss the emperor benedict jokes. *sniff*

[Who's Wee Dug]

@Watchman44 like it.

[Penfold]

I was educated in the catholic system. I stopped believing in God the day a priest rubbed his hand on my upper thigh during 'confession'. When I told my teacher, a nun, she caned the bejesus out of me.

It's all bollocks. Every word of it.

It's been a while since I last posted this but your post brought it all back to me and I thought it worth showing again. I hope it cheers you up from some bad memories.

[Sister Jennifer]

Love it. Cheers, my friend!

[Dotsie]

Who said Religeon doen't start Conflicts well it's having a dam good go on here at the moment

No it's not!

You should hear us row about velociraptors in the Garden of Eden kicking the ribs out of Adam for arguing about Free Will ...

Conflict keeps us all alive Wouldn't it be boring if everyone was nice?

[Conforumist]

When I'm 85, I hope to be 25 years retired.

[simmonds91]

Funny, but I don't think my relatives who died in the Holocaust would have forgive the millions of Nazis who might not have killed anyone themselves but had no problem letting other Nazis (perhaps even the current pope, who was a member of Hitler Youth and fought against the Allies in WWII) ship them off to Auschwitz. Christian repentance is all well and good, but I think my dead relatives (and the 12 million others killed by the Nazis) would have much preferred that these Christians not committed the acts in the first place. Considering that the Catholic Church didn't raise a finger to condemn these atrocities, it's kind of hard to forgive and forget, y'know?

Religion itself might not cause war, but certainly all of the Judeo-Christianic-Islamic faiths endorse war. The God of the Old Testament has no problem with this Israelites massacring other tribes. Jesus himself said, "I come with the sword." And the Koran is full of references to jihad and battles as a means of advancing Allah's will. The Crusades were NOT a quest for more land; would use would England have had for owning Palestine, a land over 2,000 miles away? They were religiously based, designed by Christian kings to win back Christian holy sites and to massacre thousands of Jews and Muslims who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So I was wrong about religion not causing war, I don't read the bible (of any religion) so I'll admit i'm ignorant on the subject. You were affected by the nazi's (your relatives dieing) so I don't expect you to forgive the guy especially since you are not christian and won't contradict your religions morals by not forgiving, but you can't say he didn't try to make up for it (in a very small way considering....) but as I said before, everyones entitled to their own beliefs and I think that the nazi's back in ww2 were like the muslim extremists of today (or whatever the terrorists in afghanistan are). As for myself, I wouldn't expect forgiveness for not stopping someone from killing and whatnot, it's hardly my responsibility what someone else does, i'm not anyones mother, but thats just me.

[Del]

Yep I was raised Catholic/Athiest... well.... I had a Catholic mother and a confirmed atheist for a father.

I have alot to say on this subject but I fell too tired to now.

Lets leave the Germans alone.... unless you have lived it. They are certainly NOT the only country who persecuted the Jews in WW2 or at any time in history.... or any other multitude of other religions or countries who have decided that their way is the only way. The holocaust was an evil period of history but not every single Jew is a perfect human either. Do we continually bring up the abuses of the Japanese nation during WW2? Why did the modern west stand back and allow the genocide in Africa? Or still allow it. Why isnt everyone screaming out about the atrocities in the Middle East right now? (Argh! See... I am condensing when I should be explaining more indepth all this stuff... please dont cane me).

Lets leave the Catholics alone. Yes the truth will out on the sex and abuse crimes. And about time too. As with the Jimmy Saville row these people all had "enablers". Both of my parents come in under the worst of the worst of abuse under the "Catholic" umbrella... but they turned out to be loving and caring parents who taught me tolerance.

I am not religious. My mother was. Neither one of my parents held the "institutions" of churches up on a pedestal and made DAMN sure when we had contact with them we were safe (as they werent). But then our early contact was in small outback towns and everyone knew when you sneezed in those places Priest or not!

Mum had 12 children... not because of the Catholic stance on contraception but because the methods at the time were haphazard (and she had a hell of a thing for dad ) She had her last baby the year before "The Pill" was released... boy! Wasnt she shitty about that for ages though she was so pleased it was going to be an option for her 6 daughters ...and her sons parteners. But then alot of Catholics use contrapection... and have gay sons they love dearly.. etc etc.

But my mother had faith. Funny word "faith". It means exactly what it says. If you doubt it then you dont have faith. She never rammed God down our throats... we just knew that her God walked alongside her in life. She never talked to us of an evil or vengeful god... she believed those passages of the bible were made up and put there by "the church". Well she wouldnt have been the first person to pick and choose what parts of the bible you want.

Mum was born into a rich Irish Catholic family. She was born illigitimate. Her mother brought mum home to the station so that she could die of cancer. Mum was 5. They were put in a tin shed near a creek away from the prying eyes of society where this tiny girl nursed her mum to her death when she was 11. And yes it was a local priest who checked on them on occasion to make sure they were still both alive and had some food and who would admonish the relatives in the big house for treating them like animals. Mums mother KNEW mum would go up to the big house when she died and she knew the terrible life mum would have to endure until she was 21 and legally able to leave the relatives. She knew mum would have noone to turn to for help. How helpless she must have felt. So she gave mum "God"... that invisible friend who would always be around to talk to when mum was enduring the worst of the worst from nutters who would hold the bible in one hand and a whip in the other while calling her devil spawn. The only thing that her mother could pass onto her was her faith and mum always said that was what carried her through those terrible years.

And mum survived and ran away on her 21st birthday. She always knew she would survive, she always knew she would escape and that any life would be a better one... and thats what else mum and dad taught us... do what you have to to live... and deal with the other "stuff" later.

The Catholic church (or any church) might seem a bit redundant in a western world but most of their followers are actually in third world countries. Think South America and watch the absolute depth of FAITH that so many people have in their god. Sometimes faith is all some people have to survive one day at a time. We can judge from a higher vantage point but to live it for a lifetime would be a whole other experience.

Like I said... I'm not in any way religious... now. I was once. But then my brother was killed in an accident and I wiped my hands of it. But looking back at that time, we had two amazing priests who came to the house every week to see mum. They werent pedophiles. They were caring priests who saw our family as part of their parish and who dropped in to care for mum and ease her way through her bottomless grief for Brant. They were really down to earth "blokes"... they had to be... ANY religious person who even contemplated knocking on the door of my FATHERS house had to have balls. He hated hated "the church" as such. But he stepped back and let them minister to mum because she was so lost and nothing seemed to ease her heartache for losing her child. See.... tolerance.

Good on the Pope for retiring! I think he is sending a MODERN signal to the rest of the church that it is okay to retire and I hope it sets a precedent. He hasnt done everything right (thats an understatement) but he is not just a Holy Leader he is also the Head of State of the Vatican City. Washington would be hard pushed to match the "politics" of that place! And like most politicians he will be condemned for some of his decrees and praised for others.

I think we presume that as DW fans we all take the same-ish view as TP on religion... and I admit we are a "like" bunch on alot of things. I think thats why this place is so solid.

And yes we debate... its good like that that we can. But sometimes in the heat of debate anyone who has spoken up loudly FOR their faith or their religion has been shot down in flames or "debated" into silence.

I think sometimes we need to let people know that they can voice their faith. Not every Catholic is a fundamentalist. It doesnt mean they cant have their religion. I know priests here in Australia who go out on the streets and hand out condoms to male prostitutes (against all the rules) because they have their parish and see their first duty to their parishioners.

I guess in part what I am saying is that you cant blame all the Germans for what happened "You didnt stop it!" and you cant blame all the Catholic clergy for what happened in the church. Theres good and bad in every society, and if you can speak up about the bad and change it somehow eventually then thats a good thing.

Edit: Ugh! So much for the short version.

[Dotsie]

Lets leave the Germans alone

I have said absolutely nothing against Germans - I just want to make that clear, because apparently it isn't.

I guess in part what I am saying is that you cant blame all the Germans for what happened "You didnt stop it!"

I didn't do that either. But I can't be arsed to say again what I said at least five times because people didn't read my post properly

[Del]

Dots... I wasnt commenting on your post. I read through x, y and z of these posts and posted in a general way.

Unless I actually quote I usually cant even remember who made the last post let alone who said what.

Short term memory loss... its a bitch! But watch your back in 12 months time!