Pope Resigns

[The Mad Collector]

Well said Broc

[Alanz]

If Religeon doesn't cause wars what was the troubles in Northern Ireland about? and what about all the other conflicts in the Middle East ?eg...The Holy Wars!

[cheery_j.]

on another note id like to say I think being a nazi is fine, as long as they don't kill other people or lash out, everyones entitled to an opinion

That was a joke, wasn't it?

haha, yeah, god forbid people have true freedom, to have their own opinions, likes/hates due to whatever circumstance.

Sorry, but being a nazi is NOT an opinion. Being a nazi (and I'm not talking about people who were too afraid to say anything, but about those who really believe(d) nazi ideology) means that you think that some people are worth less than others and that it is okay to kill because somebody has a certain religion/skin colour/sexual orientation or is different in any other way. THAT is not what freedom of opinion means.
Your first statement was a contradiction in itself: killing others and lashing out is exactly what being a nazi means.

[Alanz]

My Father is Polish and he was put in a Cocentration Camp during the War he said it was a nightmare, I've been to Autswitz twice not a happy place

[raisindot]

Certainly there were plenty of Germans who weren't Nazis and some did actually save the lives of Jews, Gypsies and other people the Nazis were trying to wipe out, and some of the them lost their lives for doing so. And certainly the climate of fear that existed in Germany prevented many from taking action. However, if you were a Good German in World War II and played by the rules and made no problems, you could be reasonably assured that you wouldn't be arrested. If you were a Good German Jew and played by the rules, and made no problems, you were dead no matter what you did. Had Albert Einstein remained in Germany, he would have gone to Auschwitz along with my relatives.

That said, the Nazis would have never have been able to get away with exterminating millions of Jews if there wasn't already a history of virulent anti-semitism in Germany that Hitler was able to exploit to gain complicit agreement from the German people, even those who weren't Nazis. And certain most government bureacrats in France, Italy and Eastern Europe had no problem letting Germany take care of their centuries old "Jewish problem" and were too often quite willing to round them up and put them on the death trains themselves. Of course, not all Germans or other Europeans were anti-semitic and many did try to help Jews and other minorities escape. However, it's no accident that the largest numbers of Jews were saved in the Scandinavian countries, which historically had a higher degree of tolerance for Jews than the rest of Europe.

On the other hand, had Hitler in 1941 suddenly expanded his genocide efforts to include Catholics, it's extremely likely that the nation's Catholics as a whole would have risen against him, and the Catholic Church in both Germany and the Vatican would have actively opposed such a plan in deeds and action, instead of remaining totally silent as they did concerning the fate of the Jews. And, frankly while there may have been plots against Hitler, the conspirators weren't motivated by a desire to stop killing Jews and other minorities; their conspiracy was based on a belief that Hitler was taking Germany along a path to ruination.

The fact is, that were certainly hundreds of thousands of Germans (and their accomplices) who were all too willing to shoot, torture, starve, rape innocent Jewish men, women and children and guide them to the gas chambers, motivated not by patriotism but by a desire to savangely act upon their bigotry in ways their fathers and grandfathers weren't allowed to.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Jan, I wouldn't argue with you over the fact that Ratzinger had a choice of either being Nazi or dying, if he was anyone but the Pope. But how could he deny his God (or rather what his God stands for) to save his own life? Not very Pope-like.

Like Broc's said - he was 14 and he probably didn't know if he would make 15 let alone become a priest and eventually Pope. Teens in those pre-Elvis days did what they were told and in Nazi-Socialist Germany doing what you're told was the only horse to back if you had few options open to you - like leaving the country.

It's like trying to understand the Irish Troubles - don't you dare try unless you're Irish and lived/are living during them. Germany was a complete mess after WW1 which doesn't excuse the Nazi regime in any way, but in the late 1920s and early 30s they were almost political and economic heroes to a large portion of German society that was dead in water, bankrupt and shamed in every way almost. Their 'strength' was seductive in some senses to people who couldn't or wouldn't read the signs and by the time it was too late, they'd poisoned a whole generation and ordinary people were just plain scared when it came down to it.

That said, the Nazis would have never have been able to get away with exterminating millions of Jews if there wasn't already a history of virulent anti-semitism in Germany that Hitler was able to exploit to gain complicit agreement from the German people, even those who weren't Nazis. And certain most government bureacrats in France, Italy and Eastern Europe had no problem letting Germany take care of their centuries old "Jewish problem" and were too often quite willing to round them up and put them on the death trains themselves. Of course, not all Germans or other Europeans were anti-semitic and many did try to help Jews and other minorities escape. However, it's no accident that the largest numbers of Jews were saved in the Scandinavian countries, which historically had a higher degree of tolerance for Jews than the rest of Europe.

Exactly and ditto to your comment on what if Catholics had joined blacks, gypsies, the disabled and Jews on the shit list. Churchill's record ain't particularly shiny in helping out fugitive Jewish immigrants and prior to Poland getting overrun we were perfectly happy with our 'piece of paper' out of Munich which meant we wouldn't have yet another costly war to wage and we could just be vile to the French as per usual...

Since the Middle Ages finished the Catholic hierarchy officially sits on the fence until it's arse bleeds in any conflict situation (especially in Ireland) out in the open and deplores violence, whilst carefully making sure it keeps a weather eye on who's likely to come out on top and who it will have to work with when that happens. The Borgias have a lot to answer for in teaching the Church how to play hard ball in politics. As for anti-semitism in Europe - the Cossacks had a damn good go at it too and countless other places in the western bloc including England which is all down to Christian attitudes through the last 2 millennia which is why the Holocaust was so important in finally shocking the whole world into KNOWING that genocide is evil on any scale.

So what happens after 1945? Genocide just changes continents to Africa and Asia and then comes back to Serbia and Bosnia in the 1980s and 90s. It's all terrible, of course it is, but it keeps happening and in essence it's because ordinary people get so scared of the people who hold the power, that they let it happen whatever god they happen to have or not have because trying to stop it is simply too hard, even if you're not one of the ones getting killed, because it could be you next if you're not careful.

We're herd animals and when push comes to shove we stick where it's safest to be, with other people who can shield us in some manner, especially if there's no place to run to Rome knows all about flock management, but one thing that has come with this Pope is some acknowledgement at least of the damage done since WW2 within the church. TBH when I was a kid in schools run by nuns we knew we'd get a good thumping if we stepped out of line and by gods those penguins really were bitch trolls on wheels at non-physical violence, especially if you were in care, or weren't regular at going to church, or even if you parents weren't well off. It's hard to say it now, but it was accepted that that was how things were and if you told your parents you'd got the ruler or the strap you'd as likely get another slap because it was obvious you'd done something to deserve the punishment. As for psychological damage - that was insidious and institutional before you even get onto to sex abuse. Benedict at least began to apologise for it all - lets hope the next chap is even more savvy about it and of a generation that knows where the modern world should be going.

[Who's Wee Dug]

Benedict was the head honcho dealing with all reports of abuse, every thing was reported to him before he was pope, so he more than anyone knew exactly what was going by whom and did nothing to stop or abate it, just hid it away.

[raptornx01]

Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland? In fifty years', thirty years', ten years' time the world will be very nearly back on its old course. History always has a great weight of inertia.

[Dotsie]

I have no problem with the fact that Ratzinger was doing what he had to, that it didn't mean he believed the Nazi ideology, and that most people would do the same. Don't assume that I have no empathy for what the German population went through in the war, I'm not ignorant of their suffering and I resent the implication, frankly.

But to say that The Pope is only human and so can be excused is wrong - he is apparently chosen by God and is infallible, so he is more than human. To have denied his God therefore should disqualify him - the Bible is quite clear on this, they made the rules, not me. If he were a woman, that would disqualify him, and as far as I'm aware there's nothing wrong with being female either.

[Jan Van Quirm]

But to say that The Pope is only human and so can be excused is wrong - he is apparently chosen by God and is infallible, so he is more than human.

We're not implying anything about what you're saying about Benedict the 14 year old Dotsie , but where's this about the Pope being chosen by god come from? The Pope's chosen by the College of Cardinals as 'First among Equals'. The only Pope chosen by god (Jesus) was the first one - Peter. Since that time the procedure's varied, but the incumbent Pope's always been chosen from the 'top' people at the head of the churches that have splintered off over 2 millennia. Priests and nuns are 'chosen' by god simply in terms of having answered a call to take orders and devote themselves to their beliefs - they're still men and women with all their fallibilities, prejudices and shortcomings which admittedly they try to rise above to do god's work supposedly. Nobody believes the man that's currently Pope is literally chosen by god - he's the 'best' person that's electable to the post by the College of Cardinals. The status of Pope is arguably chosen by god and the College is supposed to chose the best qualified person. In a way the Pope's just a figurehead leader for the PR - like the Queen but without renouncing the 'Divine Right'.

As someone pointed out earlier two of the main tenets of faith are forgiveness and redemption of sins. If someone, even a nazi, genuinely repents their sins and atones by acts of faith and good works then they're not abandoned by the church. Whether a repentant death camp guarding, nazi-sympathising, war criminal could rise regardless through the priestly ranks to become Pope is almost ridiculous, but he wouldn't be excluded from practising his faith or from taking holy orders if he'd shown true remorse. That's in line with the basic teaching from the 4 Gospels. The rest of it is elastic and there's huge scope for double standards which we all know about and some of us who were brought up 'in the faith' are sickened by and have turned away from the whole shoddy structure is disgust and despair. I've seen pressure bruises all the way up the arms of girls who went to a local nun-run orphanage in gym class and watched a 13 year old who had fallen for a baby completely demolished with shame at being expelled, not because she was pregnant, but because she'd had an abortion and who wasn't even a Catholic. It's a corrupt, outmoded, manipulating mess of a structure, BUT it does move on and it does do some good in countries where people need any comfort they can get.

This Pope's the end of long line of 'old school' ministers but he's started the ball rolling in admitting that things were done wrongly even if he wasn't apologising for specifics - that would have been unthinkable in Pope Paul VI's time (1963-1978). Let's just hope that by retiring now he's actually done a good thing in probably earmarking someone who's capable of taking on the unwelcome burden of bringing this heap of steaming poop screaming and kicking into the modern era of accountability and putting your morals where your mouth is at long last. That's what pushed him into taking this 'shock' course of stepping down, because he knows he's not up to the job with weakening health and, yes, a dubious past that won't match up to the squeaky clean image that the church will finally have to address properly for once to tackle the whole sorry mess.

[raisindot]

We're not implying anything about what you're saying about Benedict the 14 year old Dotsie

Wait a minute--so Dotsie is actually--the POPE???????

[Jan Van Quirm]

We're not implying anything about what you're saying about Benedict the 14 year old Dotsie

Wait a minute--so Dotsie is actually--the POPE???????

OK Benedict the 14 year old, Dotsie...

... and there is a precedent of course - Pope Joan

[Dotsie]

where's this about the Pope being chosen by god come from?

In the same way that the Bible was written by men, but is the word of God. He has a hand in everything.

they're still men and women with all their fallibilities, prejudices and shortcomings which admittedly they try to rise above to do god's work supposedly. Nobody believes the man that's currently Pope is literally chosen by god - he's the 'best' person that's electable to the post by the College of Cardinals.

The Pope is infallible actually - everything he does is sanctioned by God. So the choice of men is completely removed from the equation, according to the men involved in the choosing. What we believe as outsiders doesn't matter.

[MongoGutman]

Apparantly he's now an Ex-Benedict....




...I'll get my coat

[raisindot]

Apparantly he's now an Ex-Benedict....

What an awful yolk.