THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby SimonAtford » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:03 pm

CrysaniaMajere wrote:
SimonAtford wrote:Anyone know what I'm on about?

Think of a certain film made in late 70's and set in New York.

The warriors, 1979.


Yes! When Azog the Defiler put out a bounty on the Dwarves it reminded me of the leader of the Riffs putting out the word to every gang in the city to hunt down the Warriors after the death of Cyrus.
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby SimonAtford » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:14 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote::mrgreen: You think so? I'm into my 8th massive post on the Tolkien forum trying to explain to real 'lore' experts why there's nothing that much wrong with showing Radagast having guano-welded hair and driving a super-charged rabbit sled all over Eriador :P


What's the Tolkien forum like? I have this image of slightly scary 'purists' who take every change made by Peter Jackson as a personal affront. Should I check it out or will I just find it annoying?
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby chris.ph » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:23 pm

ask jan she has her own tolkien website and forum :D
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:22 pm

The thread's HERE in their movie forum but there's a mixture of people in there 3 of whom (besides me - I'm Jano Snowthorn on there ;) ) are pretty hardcore lore nuts and are having a hard time wondering why Jackson's not sticking to the book word for word practically :roll:

To be fair there are other forums on there where people have more of a sense of humour and have some fun with the genre or will at least admit that not everyone can enjoy the books on a purely academic level like wot they do... :P
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby BobtheDrog » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:02 pm

spideyGirl wrote:Went to see it last week with my lad in 3d and special effects messed with my eyes at times, think i might prefer to see it 2d tbh but loved it nonetheless :D

P.S is it wrong to fancy one of the dwarves? http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2225907712/nm2636108 :shifty:



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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby CrysaniaMajere » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:01 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The thread's HERE in their movie forum but there's a mixture of people in there 3 of whom (besides me - I'm Jano Snowthorn on there ;) ) are pretty hardcore lore nuts and are having a hard time wondering why Jackson's not sticking to the book word for word practically :roll:

To be fair there are other forums on there where people have more of a sense of humour and have some fun with the genre or will at least admit that not everyone can enjoy the books on a purely academic level like wot they do... :P

I reread half book of The Hobbit right before going to see the movie, because it had been ages since I had read it and frankly I was amazed at how accurate the movie was, despite of all the little changes. Of course Bilbo could have shown a bit more hospitality, and he had no 'hero action' like him trying to save Thorin, and Radagast and his rabbits... but all in all they are not that much, not enough to complain I think. Jackson really put everything in it. I don't know if I've ever seen a movie taken from a book being so accurate as to even use the same line you find in the book, and to find all the things I've read in there.
It's not like it's such an easy thing to film Tolkien's books. I think the efforts' results are amazing :P
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:29 pm

That's why some of these fanatics really are canon nazis Crys - :lol: They can't tolerate even very trivial deviations from the books and as for daring to develop concepts or characters that have virtually nothing written about them in the entire body of writing on ME (and that is staggeringly vast to the point of being in cosmic proportions) - they go into hysterics at the thought of a wizard who rarely goes nears people at all looking a bit like a he's been living in a compost heap for several decades.

They seem to think that adaptations can't put in anything that's not in the books already 'in spirit' as well as literally written :roll:
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby SimonAtford » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:28 pm

My take on Tolkien is this: I admire Tolkien as the creator of modern fantasy literature and the writer who created many of it's tropes and archetypes. I can read and enjoy his books in an '"academic'' way but only in the sense of reminding myself of all the stuff that he invented and subsequent authors (including Terry Pratchett) "borrowed".

I can sort of sympathize with those to who come to Tolkien via the films as I heard the BBC radio adaptations of both TH and LotR before I read the books (still got the tapes up in the loft). For me The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is "based" on the book in the same way Captain America: The First Avenger is based on the original 1940s comics. It is an interpretation of a number of sources which can be enjoyed by modern audiences. Provided of course that they enjoy 3 hour films with gorgeous scenery and lots of scenes in which people fall off cliffs :lol:
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Quatermass » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:27 pm

Just watched The Hobbit earlier tonight. Very good film, missing a certain je ne sais quoi that was in The Lord of the Rings, but otherwise very good.

Some observations:

*Is it me, or does Thorin seem a bit too much of an ar**hole? Understandably so, yes, but for someone who hurriedly re-read their copy of The Hobbit in preparation, he seems to be altogether too disdainful of Bilbo.

*Sylvester McCoy's Radagast was very different from the Doctor. Pretty good performance anyway.

*I've just realised that Martin Freeman (who is an excellent Bilbo, by the way) has portrayed three of the best loved characters in British literature now: John Watson, Arthur Dent, and now Bilbo Baggins.

*Barry frigging Humphries as the Goblin King. 'Nuff said.
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby SimonAtford » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:08 pm

I think Thorin's disdain for Bilbo is part of the expansion of his character. Just started re-reading the book and unlike the film he doesn't arrive at Bag End by himself but as part of a group along with Bifur, Bofur and Bombur. It' also makes a nice story arc for the first film with Bilbo proving his worth at the end.
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Quatermass » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:31 pm

SimonAtford wrote:I think Thorin's disdain for Bilbo is part of the expansion of his character. Just started re-reading the book and unlike the film he doesn't arrive at Bag End by himself but as part of a group along with Bifur, Bofur and Bombur. It' also makes a nice story arc for the first film with Bilbo proving his worth at the end.


I'm not disputing that. It just feels like it was turned up a notch too far.
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:22 pm

There has to be a certain amount of antagonism between Thorin and Bilbo which does derive from the book although in there it was mainly exasperation mingled with distrust. The disdain also has to be there because, unlike the dwarves (and Gandalf bringing Thorin's father's map and key), Bilbo is merely 'hired help' and, initially at least, not there because of allegiance or dedication to their cause, but because of uncharacteristic thrill-seeking and a share of the loot (from Thorin's perspective). His only real reason for going with them is because Gandalf wants him along and he'd be useful because of the 'back door' and so to Thorin at least he's almost spare baggage and not that useful to boot.

In the book Thorin treats Bilbo as a mild nuisance almost throughout and even when Bilbo rescues them all in Mirkwood and gets them to the Long Lake, because he, Thorin, isn't around for most of the trouble with the spiders (he's taken prisoner by the Elves before that happens) he's not entirely warmed to Bilbo until they actually get into the Lonely Mountain, only to almost immediately reject him again when he 'deserts' the Dwarves to try and stop a battle between them and the Elves and the Laketown Men. It's not a 'buddy' relationship at all, even without the frankly stupid additional stirring of the Azog strand since the warg/orc confrontation after exiting the mountain doesn't involve him with a one on one with Thorin at all in the book (as he'd died long before in the histories).

Bazza as the Great Goblin is a cartoon, but then that characrter is even in the book - he's supposed to be grotesque but also powerful and so far as he's concerned the film does stay with the original pretty well although as usual Jackson's fiddled around greatly with the battle sequence choreography to help keep the much-needed pace up to scratch (shades of Moria in there from LotR, but then it is a similar environment :roll: ).
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby SimonAtford » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:56 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:There has to be a certain amount of antagonism between Thorin and Bilbo which does derive from the book although in there it was mainly exasperation mingled with distrust. The disdain also has to be there because, unlike the dwarves (and Gandalf bringing Thorin's father's map and key), Bilbo is merely 'hired help' and, initially at least, not there because of allegiance or dedication to their cause, but because of uncharacteristic thrill-seeking and a share of the loot (from Thorin's perspective). His only real reason for going with them is because Gandalf wants him along and he'd be useful because of the 'back door' and so to Thorin at least he's almost spare baggage and not that useful to boot...


I think the film version of Thorin is also far less trusting of Gandalf as well. Thorin appreciates the need for a burglar to get them into the mountain but appears to be wonder what in the world Gandalf is playing at picking the home loving and bookish Mr Baggins. This is something that always bothered me about the book to be honest.

It's not a 'buddy' relationship at all, even without the frankly stupid additional stirring of the Azog strand since the warg/orc confrontation after exiting the mountain doesn't involve him with a one on one with Thorin at all in the book (as he'd died long before in the histories).


If I'm honest I hadn't read the book in an age (I didn't even own a copy and bought one from Waterstones after coming out the cinema) and initially thought that Azog was invented for the film :oops: I had expected him to offed by Thorin in the final fight but I'll see how it plays out in the second part of the trilogy.

Bazza as the Great Goblin is a cartoon, but then that character is even in the book - he's supposed to be grotesque but also powerful and so far as he's concerned the film does stay with the original pretty well although as usual Jackson's fiddled around greatly with the battle sequence choreography to help keep the much-needed pace up to scratch (shades of Moria in there from LotR, but then it is a similar environment :roll: )


Seeing as Smaug couldn't really be revealed in An Unexpected Journey I thing the combination of the menacing Azog and the comic Great Goblin made fine substitute villains in my opinion.
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:43 pm

The Azog storyline isn't really in The Hobbit at all but it was 'written' for various appendices and for other outline/background work that goes into the general mix for the various components of The History of Middle Earth as edited by Christopher Tolkien before and after The Silmarillion was assembled. The 'official' history for TH was put in when the book was revised once LotR was going to be published to make the two fit together more consistently with the additional material that gets covered in The Shadow of the Past and The Council of Elrond.

In context with canon (so the book) Azog is actually killed by Thorin's father Thrain in the battle as flashbacked to so he's long gone for TH timeline, BUT Azog's son, Bolg is the leader of the Northern orcs who does come into TH much later on for the final culminating Battle in Erebor. Basically he exploits the power vacuum left by the death of the Great Goblin (no relation to Azog at all) and musters the orcs to take vengeance for the ancient hostility between Durin's Clan and the Misty Mountain orcs and also grab some dragon gold of course.

The dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf do fight with wargs more than goblins after briefly escaping the mountains (the Out of the Frying Pan chapter) and get rescued by the Eagles but no heroic fighting at all takes place.

And you're quite right -Thorin also doesn't like that Gandalf's got his father's map and key too much either and is highly skeptical of his motives in seeking them out, but again this takes place before The Unexpected Party and is skipped on by and large. In the subsequent writings Gandalf explains by saying that when he found Thrain the poor dwarfie had completely lost his marbles and didn't even tell Gandalf his name or his son's so that was why he hadn't come to find Thorin years earlier . Perhaps this will covered more in film 2 or 3 depending on how soon they're going to bring in the Dol Guldur sections as that is nearly all 'not' part of TH, except by omission under the heading of 'what Gandalf got up to while the Dwarves and Bilbo got through Mirkwood' :mrgreen:
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Re: THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!

Postby Quatermass » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:35 pm

Again, I understand the motives of the filmmakers of expanding the story and the characters, as I do the reason why Thorin is an ar**hole. It just seems that it could have been taken down just one notch.

And I wasn't complaining about Barry Humphries being the Great Goblin. I thought he was absolutely great! I just thought nothing further needed to be said on the subject of his performance. Hell, even his last line when Gandalf guts him is priceless. After all that bluster about how they can't escape, when he gets gutted, he says, casually, "Yep. That'll do it." Black comedy at its finest. :lol:
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