Tamar, I don't mind keeping this debate going on, since this is a textual discussion of literary opinions, and nothing at all is meant to be taken as an attack on the validity of your opinions--only an 'attack' on the conclusions. This is the main reason I keep coming to this forum--to discuss the work. What fun would it be if we all agreed on everything?
Anyway, it would take forever to put the 'quote' thingies around all of this, so I've messily attributed your points. Sorry if it doesn't make sense.
raisindot wrote:There's no evidence whatsoever that Pepe is an elf. Elves don't 'make' anything; they STEAL what already exists.
Tamar: The elves that are sealed into, and can't leave, the parasite universe nevertheless have some things, therefore they make some things. The Fairy Feller was using an axe, the various fairies had clothing, etc.
Yes, and all of this stuff they have 'stolen' from the worlds they invade. Remember how elves seem to be dressed in various collages of 'found materials'? Pterry mentions over and over again in both L&L and WFM that elves are parasites; Parasites don't create; they live on other things.
raisindot wrote:There's no 'magical armor' in UA; just very strong armor reflecting new advanced manufacturing methods.
Tamar: I beg your pardon... a loose assemblage of open links suddenly locks together and becomes an inertialess barrier, and furthermore does it before the threatening object has time to make an impact? That's magic.
Was it Ray Bradbury who said that any advanced technology people can't understand is magic? Same here. The dwarves have created many kinds of technologies that had never been seen before and thus 'ordinary' people would have seem them as magic. And even if the armor is magic, so what? Wizard can create magical things, so can witches. It's far more likely that Pepe is a half-wizard than a DW elf.
TAMAR: The other characters mentioned are straw men, having nothing to do with my point. However, I never said that other characters couldn't make magical items. I just said that Pepe made magical armor, and I don't recall anyone on the Disc actually having magical armor before (despite the short-lived beliefs of some Heroes -'you can't hurt me, I have magical ar-rgghhh').
They all have everything to do with the point. Your argument is: Only elves can make magical armor. Pepe makes magical armor. Therefore, he is an elf. Since it's quite clear that men, wizards, witches and priests can infuse ordinary materials with magical properties, the argument that Pepe must be an elf because only elfs can make magical armor isn't supported by the DW narrative; elves are simply not 'creators' of anything other than illusions.
raisindot wrote:Mightily Oats 'created' a magical axe that mortally wounded a vampire.
TAMAR: No, Mightily Oats used a non-magical axe to kill a vampire. Any axe can kill a vampire. Oats's axe is just very sharp, and he has made it a symbol, but it is not magical.[/quote]
Re-read the section. Without its becoming 'magical' with the spirit of Om brought into to it with Oats' faith, the axe would not have worked on the Count. That's the whole POINT of the scene. Is Oats an elf?
raisindot wrote:Humans created golems, being of magical stone, some of whom ultimately evolved to became sentient beings on their own.
TAMAR: Golems are of clay, not stone. The magic that makes them live is put in by the use of the correct prayers, which is arguably religion, rather than ordinary magic. They are all sentient from the start, but were made to behave like machinery.
Now you're differentiating between 'normal' and 'holy' magic? in the DW it doesn't matter where the magic comes from; magic is magic. The original point is valid: Golems are only sentient, rather than statues, because their makers infused them with magical properties. Doesn't matter whether that magic came from a priest or a baker; a thaum is a thaum. And the golems of Making Money, while magical (what else other than magic would make them move?), are not sentient. Did elves create them?
[quote="raisindot" Pterry's elves have certain characteristics that don't change: They're stupid, they never LEARN, they 'glamor' people to gain power over them and make them feel useless, and they attempt to enslave ALL humans. Pepe has absolutely none of the characteristics of Pterry's elves at all.[/quote]
TAMAR: Well, that is essentially my point: that Pepe, as a part-elf, has inherited some human characteristics yet retains some elven ones as well, specifically a certain degree of viciousness along with the style sense and a form of magic that owes something to Tolkien's elves. Although it apparently suited Sir Terry to make fashion into a kind of dream of freedom for species that hadn't previously had that opportunity (trolls, dwarfs), at its worst fashion is literally a glamor that gives the fashionistas power over any human that falls for it and makes them feel bad about themselves for not looking like models. It's practically elvish that way.[/quote]
Again, a conclusion not in any way supported by Pterry's own definitive definitions of elves in L&L and WFM. Besides, lots of people are vicious in the DW. Fashionistas in general are vicious purveyors of fantasy. You'd have a better argument claiming Pepe is a DW vampire, since vampires are magical by nature, can be quite vicious when they want to be, like to be around young women wearing negligees, and love to exert their power over people by making them feel inferior.
I do get the point about Pterry rethinking Tolkien's elves, and he struggled to define them in earlier books (just as he struggled to come up with a cohesive portrayal of dwarfs, trolls and vampires at first) but it's quite clear than in L&L he had come up with his own definition of what elves were, and his elves are just about the opposite of what Tolkien's were (as well as the opposite of all the tales of little keeber elves and happy elves and cute elves that had been instilled in folklore over centuries). His elves are so well-defined that I don't see why he would even need to come up with a new definition of a 'half-elf' in UA, and if he had, this would have been explained, since at least Pterry almost never misses a chance to provide a bit of a definitional backstory for character-races he introduces.