Going Postal Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:19 pm

Trish wrote:
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.


No. Moist is the AIG CEO who worked a billion-dollar bailout and then took a 10million dollar bonus.
He is the GM & Chrysler execs who flew their private jets to Wash DC to beg for $$ to keep their cash-strapped corps going. And then raided the pension funds.
No, wait.. that was US Air. 2 bankruptcies in 2 years, pensions wiped out (pilots, too) and the CEO got a 14 million dollar bonus.

Set a thief to catch a thief is good.
Pretty much why FDR put Joe Kennedy Sr in charge of the SEC.
Worked up until Moist's ilk de-regulated it all and sent the Dearhearts (and a lot of us) into bankruptcy.

Sorry, Tina, Moist is scum.

I have no idea what Spike sees in him. Personable, sure. Lots of snakes are fascinating to watch.


Isn't that a bit harsh this sounds more like Reacher Gilt :wink: Moist isn't like that he is a con man yes but on a smaller scale than that and he himself considers there is, at least to him, a difference between him and Gilt. He makes sure that he can take the clacks from Gilt without destroying them which is pretty good and in Making Money he saves Ankh-Morpork for a financial crisis :D
Last edited by Sjoerd3000 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Trish » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:52 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:
Trish wrote:While describing the graveyard of ships and Anghammarad's watching them, Pratchett makes mention of an angel.
What does anyone else make of this?


You mean in the 9000 year prologue? can't find a mention of an angel :? there is mention of an anchor :wink:


The ancient golem language, said to be the "language of angles."
Of course, we don't hear any more about this --ancient golems or their language--until Making Money.
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Postby Trish » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:55 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:
Trish wrote:
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.


No. Moist is the AIG CEO who worked a billion-dollar bailout and then took a 10million dollar bonus.
He is the GM & Chrysler execs who flew their private jets to Wash DC to beg for $$ to keep their cash-strapped corps going. And then raided the pension funds.
No, wait.. that was US Air. 2 bankruptcies in 2 years, pensions wiped out (pilots, too) and the CEO got a 14 million dollar bonus.

Set a thief to catch a thief is good.
Pretty much why FDR put Joe Kennedy Sr in charge of the SEC.
Worked up until Moist's ilk de-regulated it all and sent the Dearhearts (and a lot of us) into bankruptcy.

Sorry, Tina, Moist is scum.

I have no idea what Spike sees in him. Personable, sure. Lots of snakes are fascinating to watch.


Isn't that a bit harsh this sounds more like Reacher Gilt :wink: Moist isn't like that he is a con man yes but on a smaller scale than that and he himself considers there is, at least to him, a difference between him and Gilt. He makes sure that he can take the clacks from Gilt without destroying them which is pretty good and in Making Money he saves Ankh-Morpork for a financial crisis :D


Maybe not.
Depends on how much you lost.

Gilt is Moist on a grander scale.
Moist may not think so, but those he and Gilt have stolen from likely don't discern the small, personal differences.

I can't see Moist as an anti-hero. He has no inner fire or demons and nothing to rail against except he hasn't sold a glass diamond today.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:31 pm

Sorry Tony, you were half right and I was half wrong about the chem in Dorfl' head. :oops:
I forgot about the Terminator-like scene in the end of FoC.

Can someone answer me this questions about golems;

Golems don't actually need money. The free golems are only working to get money to buy the freedom of other golems.

What will happen when the last golem has been bought and they are all free? Why should they work anymore?

There will then be an army of almost indestructible, super-strong, creatures who can live forever and communicate telepathically with each other. Creatures who can kill humans . Creatures with nothing to do.

No matter how I look it, I can't see a positive outcome to this situation.
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Postby Jason » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:04 pm

The free Golems are moral creatures. They work to buy the brethren. They chose not to kill humans because they are more than just tools.

Even if the free Golems managed to buy all the other Golems they would feel a need to work - because it then gives them worth. I can't imagine that they would suddenly decide that they would stop and do nothing.

Maybe they will become full time fire fighters.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:45 pm

It's Planet of the apes all over again. That started with one monkey being able to speak, the next thing you know it's world domination.

Vetinari has re-programmed them so they can harm humans in self-defence.

Imagine this scenario.

All the golems have been bought. A golem acting in self-defence accidently kills a human/dwarf/troll etc. A mob of humans/dwarves/trolls go on a rampage trying to destroy golems. The golems acting in self-defence kill a load more humans/dwarves/trolls.

It is now all out war. Who's going to win?

It's ironic that the three people who care for AM the most will be responsible for the destruction of the city.

Carrot - Giving Dorfl his freedom, thus creating AI.
Vimes - Giving them a tongue.
Vetinari - Giving them the power to harm humans.
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:53 pm

That's it, I am not going to join in on any more book rip ups... Terry did not mean to predict the future, he was trying to make us laugh. I like it better when I laugh at his books instead of trying to find some evil sub-meaning that is hidden underneath.

Laughter is where it is at and that is jolly well where I shall stay.

I don't mind beliefs being shaken up, but I live where the world is upside down... discworld makes me feel right side up. and Dammit I Like Moist. He reminds me of my brother, always scheming but never really hurting anyone.

If we are gonna rip up subject matter, pick Kurt Vonnegut or Neitsche or however it is spelled. Not gonna let this harsh my mellow any more.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby swreader » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:08 am

Trish wrote:
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.


No. Moist is the AIG CEO who worked a billion-dollar bailout and then took a 10million dollar bonus.
He is the GM & Chrysler execs who flew their private jets to Wash DC to beg for $$ to keep their cash-strapped corps going. And then raided the pension funds.
No, wait.. that was US Air. 2 bankruptcies in 2 years, pensions wiped out (pilots, too) and the CEO got a 14 million dollar bonus.


Set a thief to catch a thief is good.
Pretty much why FDR put Joe Kennedy Sr in charge of the SEC.
Worked up until Moist's ilk de-regulated it all and sent the Dearhearts (and a lot of us) into bankruptcy.

Sorry, Tina, Moist is scum.

I have no idea what Spike sees in him. Personable, sure. Lots of snakes are fascinating to watch.


Trish, I think you are confusing Gilt and Moist. But I do think that Terry is writing about the financial world, swindles, and how they take place.

It seems to me that Moist (whose background is left--purposely I suspect--very vague) has been a rather successful con man. He has, I think, pretty much the view of the world that Vetinari expressed in G!G! that the great mass of people are a rather pedestrian kind of evil, and thus can be manipulated and deserve to be.

The diamond/glass ring trick only works, he says, because the "victim" is trying to cheat him--to get something for almost nothing. It's like the general warning about scams--if it seems to good to be true, it probably is. His thefts from the forgeries at the banks are part of the game he plays seeing if he can outwit the rich and powerful--not for personal financial gain, but as a "game".

I think that Pratchett has deliberately created a character with essentially no past, and no real relationships because he hasn't stayed anywhere long enough to develop one. Nor has he, in his own mind, done anything all that wrong--because he hasn't seen the pain he has caused. He is quite insulted and yet upset by Pump's accusation that he has murdered 2.338 people.

But Moist changes in the course of the novel. He has a talent for manipulating other people and he really is far more intelligent than average. He has been forced by Vetinari's angel trick to see people as people. Consequently, he has developed a sense of conscience by the end of the book which is why he sets out to destroy Gilt and the Board of Directors of the Trunk. He is, in fact, the only one who can do it without destroying the society, which may explain why Vetinari chose him.

If one thinks of Moist in terms of Ponzi schemes, he'd be the original Ponzi--a small time con artist who took a number of people for what was a good deal of money to them, but not on a national scale.

Reacher Gilt (which sounds a bit like guilt) is much more like the type of corporate criminal you allude to. Gilt is operating on a much bigger scale with ambition so mad that even an Igor won't stay with him. He is the Bernie Madoff, the AIG, the Countrywide Executive (and all the others) of Ank-Morpork. It is significant, however, that Vetinari has the meeting with the Board of the Trunk at the beginning, and that Gilt (like a good Republican) insists that The Trunk is Private Property and cannot be regulated for the welfare of the state. We only come to see Gilt for the ruthless eveil man he is toward the end of the book.

Gilt remains a background figure until Pratchett has educated Moist. The fake message that Moist slips into the Trunk's transmission - The Charge from the Dead - is the revelation of the major corporate criminal. And like the amoral mad being that he is, Gilt is nowhere to be found by the time the message is read out. He has left his co-conspirators to "face the music" alone.

The Board of the Grand Trunk have taken over The Trunk to loot it because the original owners were not sophisticated enough in terms of finance to realize how they were being destroyed. This really is robbery with intent to kill. And Gilt's associates, the various bankers are corrupted by him, as he says in the final speech to Igor, because they are corruptible in nature. All of them have fiduciary responsibility to their depositors, shareholders, whatever--but they are embezzling for personal gain and he tells them what they are doing and what he is doing and going to do, but they don't believe him because they don't want to.

Gilt kills--not directly but like a corporate decision, without getting his hands dirty. He kills young Dearheart and he kills Angrahammrad by accident because he was trying very hard to kill Moist. Those people represent threats in some way to his operation and he is totally indifferent to the death of Angrahammrad and the near deaths of Groat and Stanley. He kills Horsefry because, although he is a part of the operation, he is also a threat, a weak link who might expose the scheme. And slowly but surely he is killing The Trunk--the operators who are forced to work in unsafe conditions, without adequate time for repair or rest for themselves. He is in the process of destroying one of Ank-Morpork's vital institutions and bringing an economic collapse like the Great Depression.

What distinguishes his activities from Moist's is Gilt's megalomaniac willingness to destroy a whole society for his personal gain. He gives great parties, he has a regular table apparently at Le Foie Heureux, and as Arabella says--he plans to be the Patrician. In roundworld terms, he is one of the "movers & shakers", the head of insurance industries, banks, oil and coal companies, who are concerned only for themselves because they believe they are the only people who matter.

Gilt steals money and life from society because he sees society, not as real individual people, but as a mass to be manipulated for his own profit. He is a truly larger than life evil figure--who would rather die than change.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:25 am

Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:That's it, I am not going to join in on any more book rip ups... Terry did not mean to predict the future, he was trying to make us laugh. I like it better when I laugh at his books instead of trying to find some evil sub-meaning that is hidden underneath.

Laughter is where it is at and that is jolly well where I shall stay.

I don't mind beliefs being shaken up, but I live where the world is upside down... discworld makes me feel right side up. and Dammit I Like Moist. He reminds me of my brother, always scheming but never really hurting anyone.

If we are gonna rip up subject matter, pick Kurt Vonnegut or Neitsche or however it is spelled. Not gonna let this harsh my mellow any more.


Chill out Tina. :P

It's only a discussion. Don't take it so seriously, coz it ain't even started to get interesting yet. :lol:

Terry is trying to make us laugh, but also to make us think. If you only want to laugh, stick to Calvin and Hobbes. However, if an author parodies the real world, then it's only fair to use real world examples in a discussion.

I agree with you about Moist. I like Moist too. But I will stand up and fight for him as opposed to acting like an ostrich and burying my head in the sand..

For example, Mr Pump says that Moist has been responsible for the deaths of 2.89858676453968 deaths (or whatever). By our own everyday actions, how many deaths have we been inadvertently responsible for but don't know about? If I had gone to Tescoes instead of Asda last Friday, then maybe John Smith living in Reading wouldn't have killed his wife with a frying pan on Saturday.

I'm also sure the banks that Moist tricked have been responsible for more deaths than Moist, by repossessing houses, calling in loans, refusing to give loans etc.

I think Moist is a good guy. If you start accusing him of indirectly killing people, then Alias Smith and Jones (old TV cowboys), Robin Hood, and Maurice and his amazing rodents are all in the same category. Scum the lot of them! :lol:
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Postby poohbcarrot » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:34 am

....and 2.338 people?

Either that figure is correct or it is incorrect.

If it is incorrect then Mr Pump is lying. If golems can lie, who's to say that Dorfl isn't lying when he says he's chosen to be moral?

If it is correct, then how come a golem can do complex calculations to three decimal places, using an almost infinite amount of causial variables?
The thought that golems are capable of such advanced computer-like intelligence is terrifying.

And, how many lives did Moist SAVE by bringing down Gilt? I'm sure that number is far higher than the people he "killed".
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:54 am

poohbcarrot wrote:Vetinari has re-programmed them so they can harm humans in self-defence.


I either missed that bit, or you're referring to Vetinari giving Mr Pump the power to harm on the authority of a government official. Which is a bit different. It means that Vetinari has developed an army of supersoldiers who will obey only him (if he sack all his employees :wink: ).

But they're not actually virtually indistructable. As Adora Belle says, you could do some serious damage to one with a sledgehammer.

But I don't think they would ever rampage though. They seem quite stable, as long as they don't have too much chem to confuse them.
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:05 am

Trish wrote:
Sjoerd3000 wrote:
Trish wrote:
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.


No. Moist is the AIG CEO who worked a billion-dollar bailout and then took a 10million dollar bonus.
He is the GM & Chrysler execs who flew their private jets to Wash DC to beg for $$ to keep their cash-strapped corps going. And then raided the pension funds.
No, wait.. that was US Air. 2 bankruptcies in 2 years, pensions wiped out (pilots, too) and the CEO got a 14 million dollar bonus.

Set a thief to catch a thief is good.
Pretty much why FDR put Joe Kennedy Sr in charge of the SEC.
Worked up until Moist's ilk de-regulated it all and sent the Dearhearts (and a lot of us) into bankruptcy.

Sorry, Tina, Moist is scum.

I have no idea what Spike sees in him. Personable, sure. Lots of snakes are fascinating to watch.


Isn't that a bit harsh this sounds more like Reacher Gilt :wink: Moist isn't like that he is a con man yes but on a smaller scale than that and he himself considers there is, at least to him, a difference between him and Gilt. He makes sure that he can take the clacks from Gilt without destroying them which is pretty good and in Making Money he saves Ankh-Morpork for a financial crisis :D


Maybe not.
Depends on how much you lost.

Gilt is Moist on a grander scale.
Moist may not think so, but those he and Gilt have stolen from likely don't discern the small, personal differences.

I can't see Moist as an anti-hero. He has no inner fire or demons and nothing to rail against except he hasn't sold a glass diamond today.
Trish, I tended to think of Moist like that in previous readings of the the book - I thought why should I like a conman. But the way I saw it this time, Mist is Gilt in potential, Given the same chances and a few more years them Moist might certainlty be just like him,

In some ways I see this book a bit like the movie 'It's a Wonderful Life' with Moist being shown by his 'angel' the way his lkife is going and giving him the chance to change.

It actually shocks Moist to find that his tricks have been the death of people and to actually meet someone (Spike) who lost their job because of him. Suddenly it's not funny anymore. He's seeing the victims and the results of his games.

And up until now it has been a game to him. The money is just to keep score. He justifies his actions by saying that he's only preying on the greedy and therefore it's theor own fault, but it's not.

In this book he learns responsibility and empathy. Gilt is too far gone to change. :D
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Postby poohbcarrot » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:44 am

How many days are there in a Discworld week? I thought there were 8, this book says 7. 8)
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:54 am

poohbcarrot wrote:How many days are there in a Discworld week? I thought there were 8, this book says 7. 8)
I'm sure there are eight - maybe it was an editting error. What page is it on, only I'm fairly sure I remember Octeday (the eighth day) being mentioned. :)
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:16 am

In the post office regulations it talks of the number of deliveries every day, 'sundays and octedays excepted'. I don't remember mention of 7 days, but then I probably wouldn't notice :?
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