Going Postal Discussion *Spoilers*

[Tonyblack]

You can't be talking about a mistake on the hardcover version, that one was lamer then the paperback. The only thing I see on the paperback is the "postal Franking stamp" has 4 lines on one side and 7 on the other.

This is the cover in question.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Aren't the covers usually Editorial choices anyway? The Author rarely gets to choose the name of the blasted book. Then they change the cover and rename the book for poor fools like me who see it and go "oooh a Mercedes Lackey book I haven't read yet" or Ooooh a new John Ringo book. Edit: Then, I get to "give" it to a friend which is rare since most of my friends are online, or go back and take store credit. That is usually what I do since I have spent most of the time grabbing books like gumball rings saying OOOOOH Pretty, I want, NONONO walk away from the damn book, wench.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I like Moist, other than the twinges of evil that lurk in EVERY man anyway, he is basically driven by his own moral compass, his just points South a lot. He is intelligent, articulate, even, sort of, saved by the love of an interesting woman, who smells like an ashtray, but in a nice way.

Set a thief to catch a thief, there is nothing that stops him from using said naughty skills to help people and the stamps were brilliant.

Moist simply plays with his Jungian dark side on a tightrope, balancing a golem in one hand and Stanley and Mr. Groat in the other. Underneath it all he is actually "good" in the broadest sense of the word. He never murdered, or actually "tried" to Hurt anyone on purpose, he just wanted to use their "Own" dark side to try and take advantage of Him.

They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.

[swreader]

Heavens to Murgatroyd-- you think Boris is fast? This discussion has taken off like Boris. 3 pages, and I've just finished breakfast. And it's moved so fast that I can't call up the first page now, but opening two screens and going back to the first page--

Dotsie- I couldn't disagree more -- both William and Moist have personalities that change and develop in the story. If you are saying this isn't a character-driven book, well no--it's a comic satire.

I have never liked the Paul Kidby covers, which are parodies of sorts of pieces of art work but with some form of the characters in them. Tony and I argue about this--he likes figuring how who the various people are on the covers. As a bookseller, I find the English covers almost universally too busy, and while I don't like the American ones because often the art work is cartoonish, I would say that one of my favorite covers, because it is striking and calls the reader to see what the book may be about without being overly busy-- the British ed. of Thud!. I know that the authors, at least in American publishing, have no control of the art work, and have been at several cons where panels of authors have shared horror stories about the covers. That comes, I think, because the American illustrators have, at best, read a synopsis of the book--and consequently come croppers (stamps on the letters Moist is drowning in).

I can only type (shoulder problem) so much at a time. So I'll come back to discuss golems. By the way--I just sent Paul Krugman (the Nobel Laureate Economist) an e-mail asking if he has read it, and if not suggesting it. Terry has very little use for corporations who show know interest or concern (pirates indeed) for the people around them. But Terry's view of the responsibility and intelligence of the "ordinary man" is about the same as Vetinari's.

[swreader]

If I remember correctly that was because he was given his own freedom. His chem was removed and he was able to think freely for the first time.

I don't believe you do remember correctly Tony, because when his chem was removed he shut down. When the receipt was put into his head, it meant that he owned himself and then he started thinking freely.

Neither of you is quite right. But fairly clearly what Terry explores in FOC is whether golems are things (robots) or some kind of being (eg. human).
When Dorfl appears at the police station and "confesses" they take his chem out - and as long as it's out, he's essentially dead. And he appears to be subject (Terry read Asimov) to the 3rd law of Robotics, that a robot/golem may not harm or allow harm to come to a human being. When Carrot puts the chem back in, Dorfl cannot actually hit him though he tries.

When Carrot and Angua follow Dorfll from the police station after Carrot demonstrates that he is not the murderer, and Carrot buys him from the Butcher for $1.00, Carrot puts the receipt in Dorfl's head. He "faints", but when Carrot tries to remove it, Dorfl comes out of the faint and goes away to the cellar to think about things, and then to act. Dorfl knows now that he is a thinking being and as such is responsible for his actions. He was partially responsible for creating the white golem (who is insane), and he must try to destroy that poor mad creature before it does more harm. But in the fight, the King (the white golem who is mad) slices Dorfl's head open and his chem falls out.

But, he manages, even without the chem and in his mutilated state to shatter the King's head. Afterwords, in his mutilated state he writes WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN.

Dorfl is rebuilt and given a tongue, and what the Golem Trust has undertaken is implementing what Dorfl describes at the end of FOC. They are buying the freedom of other golems, rehabiliting them, allowing them to work to buy themselves free. These semi-free but conscious and speaking golems appear to have some of the requirements of preventing harm to humans, because they turn up for the fire at the Post Office. They appear to have feelings, but they are not human feelings, exactly, but based on the Universe as they see it.

[Tonyblack]

I hope everyone here has read Feet of Clay.

[Sjoerd3000]

Oh! By the way Tony, the parrot says 12 and a half %. Is there any connection between this and Reacher Gilt dressing as a pirate?

I'm glad you asked that Pooh!

But I'm sure everyone here already knows that 12 and a half percent is an eighth. So the parrot is actually saying 'Pieces of eight!' just like Long John Silver's parrot (Captain Flint) in Treasure Island.

In the Dutch edition the parrot just says pieces of eight(well realen van acht actually but that's just Dutch for pieces of eight)

[Tonyblack]

That's not very subtle. What a shame.

[Sjoerd3000]

yeah it is. Also Groats rank is postbezorger. Instead of being junior postman which is off course funnier .

Since Anghammarad is collected by Death when he died he much have a soul so Golems are alive and more than just tools just like they believe. Or maybe he was alive because he believed he was

[Jan Van Quirm]

Who makes the laws in robotics? Whoever does that can surely rewrite those laws.

In the Asimov books, humans were intially scared of robots, whereas the spacers weren't. I believe it was called the Frankenstein complex. As all the robots were made by the same company, the president (Susan Calvin) agreed that all robots would incorporate the three laws, thus making them acceptable to humans, and preventing a robot rebellion at some time in the future.

(I'm remembering this from 30 years ago, so could be wrong)

Just about Susan Calvin and the monopoly of the manufacturer - she was the chief robopsychologist employed by the company who manufactured the robots with the positronic brain and for whom the Frankenstein Complex mostly applied as they were all vaguely humanoid in shape and the 'free-thinking' aspect was viewed with great suspicion and eventually let to a complete ban on their being used on Earth. She's a very interesting literary figure Ms. Calvin - almost like a robot herself, very emotionless, she nevertheless did have strong but well-controlled feelings, and in a way was like a mother for the positronic robots. Certainly an advocate for them.

There was another company in contention with Calvin's company at first anyway - US Robots and Mechanical Men was the one she worked for, but there was another who might have been the Mechanical Men component as I think the 2 companies merged when the ban kicked in to leave the Earth robot free. This other company produced the sort of robots who were more akin to how unfreed Golems are in Discworld (or like programmed industrial robots in our contemporary culture) and did not have positronic brains and so were less adept for unsupervised deployment off-planet although they also had the 3 Laws implanted into their operational software (or chem)

[Tonyblack]

yeah it is. Also Groats rank is postbezorger. Instead of being junior postman which is off course funnier .

Since Anghammarad is collected by Death when he died he much have a soul so Golems are alive and more than just tools just like they believe. Or maybe he was alive because he believed he was

I think you've pretty much hit it on the head there.

If Death is greeting them then they must be alive and have gained souls.

[Trish]

They are everywhere, Three Card Monty, Lottery tickets, Scratch off Lottery Tickets, Politicians, Churches (Organized and NOT B'Hai faith), Fundraisers where 80 to 90% of the money goes to the workers and Not the poor. Moist is Not in with these characters.

No. Moist is the AIG CEO who worked a billion-dollar bailout and then took a 10million dollar bonus.
He is the GM & Chrysler execs who flew their private jets to Wash DC to beg for $$ to keep their cash-strapped corps going. And then raided the pension funds.
No, wait.. that was US Air. 2 bankruptcies in 2 years, pensions wiped out (pilots, too) and the CEO got a 14 million dollar bonus.


Set a thief to catch a thief is good.
Pretty much why FDR put Joe Kennedy Sr in charge of the SEC.
Worked up until Moist's ilk de-regulated it all and sent the Dearhearts (and a lot of us) into bankruptcy.

Sorry, Tina, Moist is scum.

I have no idea what Spike sees in him. Personable, sure. Lots of snakes are fascinating to watch.

[Trish]

While describing the graveyard of ships and Anghammarad's watching them, Pratchett makes mention of an angel.
What does anyone else make of this?

[Jan Van Quirm]

The dark side grows strong!

[Sjoerd3000]

While describing the graveyard of ships and Anghammarad's watching them, Pratchett makes mention of an angel.
What does anyone else make of this?

You mean in the 9000 year prologue? can't find a mention of an angel there is mention of an anchor