Going Postal Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:46 pm

That rewriting of the law was somewhat Orwellian to me as in "All animals are equal" with the later edition of "But some are more equal than others".

Laws can be rewritten and if you look at a golem as a robot then whatever Asimov might say, there's no reason that I can think of that a robot can't be reprogrammed.

Who makes the laws in robotics? Whoever does that can surely rewrite those laws.

And (he adds) the very word 'robot' comes from the Czech for 'slave', or so I understand.
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Postby Dotsie » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:49 pm

Golems are more than robots. Can't they overrule their own chem anyway? Does Dorfl (FoC) even have chem? (I can't remember)
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Postby Trish » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:51 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
poohbcarrot wrote:Oh! By the way Tony, the parrot says 12 and a half %. Is there any connection between this and Reacher Gilt dressing as a pirate? :wink:


But I'm sure everyone here already knows that 12 and a half percent is an eighth. So the parrot is actually saying 'Pieces of eight!' just like Long John Silver's parrot (Captain Flint) in Treasure Island. :wink:


12 1/2% also denotes Gilt as a thief. Not a B&E, take the family silver away in a sack thief, but a legal thief.
Even Slant, the lawyer, can't charge more than every 1/6 of an hour (US), so Gilt "steals" twice as much as Slant and legally.

The rates bring up the question of usury. Forbidden to Christians throughout western Europe during the Middle Ages, usury was the sole province of the Jews because they were thought to be 'without souls' in the X-tian view.

Apply this non-soul bit to Gilt when Vetinari offers him his angel...


I don't like Moist. He is the stockbroker, the brokerage that swindles and smiles.
My family lost almost a quarter million to a fellow like Moist.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:53 pm

Dorfl has the receipt that Carrot paid one penny for him in his head - probably.
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:54 pm

If I remember correctly that was because he was given his own freedom. His chem was removed and he was able to think freely for the first time. Somewhat like a slave being given their freedom. :)
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Postby Trish » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:54 pm

Dotsie wrote:Golems are more than robots. Can't they overrule their own chem anyway? Does Dorfl (FoC) even have chem? (I can't remember)


Free golems may be able to have a say in their chem. "Frees" certainly develop personalities.

MoC:
Dorfl ends up without a chem, but has a receipt saying he owns himself.
From there, Dorfl decides how he will act as a being.
Vimes orders Dorfl be given a tongue. Although Chalky the Troll is horrified at the idea of a talking golem, he makes it.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:58 pm

Tonyblack wrote:If I remember correctly that was because he was given his own freedom. His chem was removed and he was able to think freely for the first time.


I don't believe you do remember correctly Tony, because when his chem was removed he shut down. When the receipt was put into his head, it meant that he owned himself and then he started thinking freely. :wink:
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:00 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:If I remember correctly that was because he was given his own freedom. His chem was removed and he was able to think freely for the first time.


I don't believe you do remember correctly Tony, because when his chem was removed he shut down. When the receipt was put into his head, it meant that he owned himself and then he started thinking freely. :wink:
Thank you for the correction Pooh! :D It's been quite some time since I read Feet of Clay. :wink:


In fact (having checked) it was over two years ago. :shock:
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:08 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:.... because when his chem was removed he shut down.


Exactly like a robot. Not a slave. Robots live 9,000 years, slaves don't.
Robots don't work without programming.

In fact I'd call golems, along with Hex, Discworld articial intelligence.
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:12 pm

It depends on what your definition of a slave is. And whether an item that is self aware and owned by someone else is a slave of an appliance.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:17 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Who makes the laws in robotics? Whoever does that can surely rewrite those laws.

In the Asimov books, humans were intially scared of robots, whereas the spacers weren't. I believe it was called the Frankenstein complex. As all the robots were made by the same company, the president (Susan Calvin) agreed that all robots would incorporate the three laws, thus making them acceptable to humans, and preventing a robot rebellion at some time in the future.

(I'm remembering this from 30 years ago, so could be wrong)
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:37 pm

As it's beddy-byes time shortly, here's my last comment until tomorrow.

On Roundworld, humans no longer design computers, but computers design computers.

Imagine if 20 years into the future, computers design AI. This AI is then put into a Robot (robotics having advanced considerably in the 20 years too)

Now, would you call this robot a tool or should it be given equal rights to humans? (Asimov's Bicentenial Man)

And would you allow it to get built without the safeguards of the 3 laws of robotics? (No safeguards and we're entering the realms of Terminator)

In fact in Feet of clay, this is exactly what the golems (robots) do. They build their own robot which unfortunately malfunctions.

If all golems are classed as self aware, then they must be given the same rights as humans. Therefore the badly programmed white golem must also be in the same category.
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:54 pm

I really enjoyed Going Postal (everytime a bit more it's true :wink: ) I do like Moist (a bit anyway) He's a hero (sort of) he resurects the post office defeats Gilt and rescues a cat(very heroic). Off course he is also a con man but in the end he chooses not to be (when he sees the second angel) and his entire loot is spend on the post office so the peolple he conned can see it as taxes :wink:

About Dorfl didn't he got his head bashed in by the golem king and then he finds the chem in his heart? So in the end he got no more chem.

Did anyone notice the sweeper in the temple of Offler? Could be Lu-Tze :D

No I'm off to college I'll be back 8)
A poster outside one shop urged people to Dig For Victory, as if it were some kind of turnip.
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:10 pm

You can't be talking about a mistake on the hardcover version, that one was lamer then the paperback. The only thing I see on the paperback is the "postal Franking stamp" has 4 lines on one side and 7 on the other.

Moist is ok, I don't mind if my heroes come with a slide of grease, all they have to do is be heroes in the long run. He is honest with himself. He does not like the gold suit at first, but sees it for what it is... a symbol.

You ain't got a thing, if you ain't got that swing.

The US cover shows the horse "Boris"? the evil thing on four legs that almost makes Moist faint. It shows that nobody believes in the idea of the post office, even those who would use it.

I like Stanley, he is very tightly wound and has to rely on his compulsions to keep life ok. The piece of paper crossing the line in the basemen which has been trimmed by a razor shows that. The joy he finds with stamps, and "putting away his childish pins" bit is hilarious.

I must get ready for paintball now so, don't go getting all manky about tearing the book to bits to analyze. I think it is an entire piece in and of itself. I could use some of Adora Belle Dearheart's moxie..."This is a Pretty Lucrecitia number three, I know you're wondering, how much farther can it go" A Little bit of Clint there.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:18 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:
If all golems are classed as self aware, then they must be given the same rights as humans. Therefore the badly programmed white golem must also be in the same category.
If that's the case then the golems are slaves by definition, because they are possessions bound to servitude.

The buying of the golems through the Trust and paid for by the free golems mirrors, to a degree, the way that freed slaves purchased their families out of bondage.

Sjoerd - I wondered about that old man sweeping at the temple as well. :wink:

As to Moist - one thing that has put me off him in this and Making Money is the fact that Terry says everyone likes him. I don't see much there to like and I'm not convinced with Terry.

However, this reading of the book, I have felt like I've come to understand him a bit better. I still don't like him, but I can see why he is like he is. :D
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