Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby Tonyblack » Tue May 22, 2012 6:29 pm

While I don't think Pepe is any sort of Elf, there are mentions of elf/human hybrids in the books. No, I still think Pepe is a human with dwarfism. He acts a lot more human than dwarf-like.
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Re: Pepe

Postby raptornx01 » Tue May 22, 2012 9:25 pm

=Tamar wrote:
I have a different theory, for which there is very little evidence except more theory...
Does anybody else remember that back in Moving Pictures there were elves working in Holy Wood?
And that in one of the Witch stories Granny Weatherwax said yes, there were cross-breeds of elves and humans who mostly sunburned easily and giggled a lot, but were nothing compared to the real, nasty kind of elves?
I think Pepe is an elf-human cross-breed.
Pepe is working with the dwarfs to make magical chain mail clothing that is considered by most readers to refer to Tolkien's mithril armor, made by elves.
Terry has been known to criticize Tolkien for making the orcs utterly evil with no possibility of redemption.
And while Terry has created a way for orcs (best known from Tolkien despite the popularity of later games) to be rehabilitated, he has also created a being who has some of the nastiness of the elves while also having the ability to live and work with dwarfs and even humans, and who takes steps to deal with the human who behaves like the full-blooded elves, at least partly to protect the humans he has been working with. I think that Pepe is Terry's way of rehabilitating his own "evil race with no redeeming qualities" - the elves.


Didn't he already do this in Wee Free Men? Basically setting up the Queen as an almost tragic figure. saying that her and fairyland used to be very different before the king and her had their falling out and he left. That she changed, got colder, harsher, meaner, and with her so did the land because it was connected to her?
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Re: Pepe

Postby raisindot » Wed May 23, 2012 1:06 pm

raptornx01 wrote:Didn't he already do this in Wee Free Men? Basically setting up the Queen as an almost tragic figure. saying that her and fairyland used to be very different before the king and her had their falling out and he left. That she changed, got colder, harsher, meaner, and with her so did the land because it was connected to her?


Pterry's elves were always mean, stupid and greedy. In Lords & Ladies, it's made clear that the elven incursion that occurred during the book wasn't the first time it had happened. The Queen had attempted to woo Granny at a young age, and it's revealed that it had been so long since the last elven invasion that the Lancrans only remember the beauty and glamour of the elves, rather than their thievery and general nastiness. When Nanny is speaking with the elf king she mentions how the world has changed and that the elves no longer have the power to take control the way they used. This suggests that the king and queen may have one time worked together on these invasions into the DW reality.

I think Pterry's mentions of elf-human hybrids is one of the many ideas he introduced and later discarded as his view of the DW universe evolved, the same way that the early trolls, dwarves and vampires transformed from jokey parodies into races with complex histories and cultures.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby raptornx01 » Wed May 23, 2012 7:24 pm

I was thinking that the time the Feegles were reffering to was long before the events talked about in L&L.
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Re: Pepe

Postby =Tamar » Thu May 24, 2012 1:39 am

raisindot wrote: Pterry's elves were always mean, stupid and greedy. In Lords & Ladies, it's made clear that the elven incursion that occurred during the book wasn't the first time it had happened.


True. We first heard about Discworld elves in The Light Fantastic, from the gnome that lived in the mushroom, and Rincewind concurs. At that point, Twoflower had the Victorian flower-fairy concept, and Rincewind knew perfectly well what elves were like, presumably from his studies at UU.

raisindot wrote: it had been so long since the last elven invasion that the Lancrans only remember the beauty and glamour of the elves, rather than their thievery and general nastiness.


They remembered enough to put horseshoes over the door. Nanny remembered that if you used the correct name, they would hear it; that's why they were called the Fair Folk and all those other honorifics. The memory was kept between the lines of the poems and stories: "We dare not go a-hunting/For fear of little men" and so on.

raisindot wrote: I think Pterry's mentions of elf-human hybrids is one of the many ideas he introduced and later discarded as his view of the DW universe evolved, the same way that the early trolls, dwarves and vampires transformed from jokey parodies into races with complex histories and cultures.


Except that he started with the nasty version, then wrote in elves that would work with humans in Holy Wood (who could have been smarter but just as nasty, if you recall some Roundworld Hollywood stories), then in Lords and Ladies he had Granny describe elf-human hybrids in order to point out that they were nothing compared to the dangerous sort that were returning. That passage is page 166 in the US paperback, when Granny is talking to Ridcully on the bridge.
There also seem to be several different types of nasty elves, maybe from different parasite planets. I remember the Queen in The Wee Free Men being described as small and fuzzy beneath the glamour; she is not the insectoidal one from Lords and Ladies, and neither is much like the elves in the underground under the Long Man.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby raptornx01 » Thu May 24, 2012 9:12 pm

Insectiodal and fuzzy are not mutually exclusive.

And on Pepe. i've been going through UA again, and there is a part toward the end where he confronts Trevor. he does give hints to his past. talking about having certain, "preferences". so i'm thinking Terry was going in a different direction then you were thinking about.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby =Tamar » Fri May 25, 2012 3:04 am

raptornx01 wrote:Insectoidal and fuzzy are not mutually exclusive.


True, but the two different queens are not described as identical, either, and the non-queen elves from The Wee Free Men are described and are clearly not physically like the ones in Lords and Ladies.

raptornx01 wrote:And on Pepe. i've been going through UA again, and there is a part toward the end where he confronts Trevor. he does give hints to his past. talking about having certain, "preferences". so i'm thinking Terry was going in a different direction than you were thinking about.


"Preferences" are not necessarily mutually exclusive either. It's quite clear that Pepe is claiming to be gay (we can't necessarily believe him, but he does say "I'm an old sod" and "I am a bugger" which, though they are terms of disparagement which he may be using to make himself more threatening, may also be factually descriptive). He also wears special clothing which we are hinted is magical but not in quite the same way as the micromail shorts he lends to Trevor. His own description is that "You'd have to be suicidal" to want to wear his, so they sound as though they might chafe, to say the least. :whistle:
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby raisindot » Thu May 31, 2012 6:45 pm

=Tamar wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:Insectoidal and fuzzy are not mutually exclusive.


True, but the two different queens are not described as identical, either, and the non-queen elves from The Wee Free Men are described and are clearly not physically like the ones in Lords and Ladies.


It was quite clear that this was the same queen. Could there possibly be two elf queens whose husband-kings left them?

As for the different 'appearances' of the elves, remember that they look the way people want them to look. In L&L, their appearance as beautiful, stylish creatures was shaped by what the Lancre townfolk imagined them to look like, aided by collective memery (misspelling intentional). In WFM, their appearance is based solely on Tiffany's dreams and nightmares. She's too young to necessarily think of them in terms of beauty (although the Queen's beauty is probably the one thing that doesn't change among all people who meet her, partly because in most mythologies queens are almost always beautiful), and instead sees them as nightmare creatures--hounds, headless horsemen, 'bee-women' and whatnot. Indeed, Tiffany may actually be the first person who ever saw what the Queen really looked like (even Granny may not have achieved this).
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby =Tamar » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:02 am

raisindot wrote:It was quite clear that this was the same queen. Could there possibly be two elf queens whose husband-kings left them?


I would be more surprised if there had ever been an elf relationship that lasted without a breakup. They live for hundreds if not thousands of years and are also easily bored.

raisindot wrote:As for the different 'appearances' of the elves, remember that they look the way people want them to look. In L&L, their appearance as beautiful, stylish creatures was shaped by what the Lancre townfolk imagined them to look like, aided by collective memery (misspelling intentional). In WFM, their appearance is based solely on Tiffany's dreams and nightmares.


I don't recall that being mentioned in the story. Tiffany wasn't described as having any nightmares, certainly not with the kind of imagery in the elf-queen's world.

raisindot wrote:She's too young to necessarily think of them in terms of beauty (although the Queen's beauty is probably the one thing that doesn't change among all people who meet her, partly because in most mythologies queens are almost always beautiful),


But remember, Tiffany is the girl who asked "Where's the evidence." She is the last person to automatically assume someone claiming royalty would necessarily be beautiful. Also, Tiffany has no experience of style; she was embarrassed about the china figurine but had no more fashionable image to replace it with. If the Queen's appearance had to be based on Tiffany's subconscious, socially-imprinted ideas, she'd have looked like the china figurine.

raisindot wrote: and instead sees them as nightmare creatures--hounds, headless horsemen, 'bee-women' and whatnot. Indeed, Tiffany may actually be the first person who ever saw what the Queen really looked like (even Granny may not have achieved this).


The Feegles and Roland seem to have seen them the same way Tiffany did.
I'll grant you the landscape, that did seem to be forming itself according to expectations, but Tiffany wasn't demanding that it be snowy - that was forced by the Queen. The other denizens and former denizens complained about it.

Magrat saw the queen that she fought in Lords and Ladies as insectoid, but she was thinking of the battle in terms of bee queens, and that may have affected her perception. On the other hand, Granny Weatherwax used the shape that human minds put onto the elves to weaken them, to change them into fluffy little Victorian fairies. Maybe a strong enough human mind can actually reshape the elves, not just make them appear one way or another. If so, then Magrat's thinking of the elf queen as a thin little insectile being would have changed the humanoid form into the insectile form, and similarly, Tiffany's looking at an elf queen as a small animal would have forced that form to appear.
Granny was spoiling for a fight, so maybe she had trouble overcoming her own need for a worthy opponent.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby prajuvikas » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Nutt as coach...Who is he modeled after? is he Sven Goran Ericksen? or Wenger? or Rinus Michels?

He's clearly not Sir Alex Fergeson though is he...


(P.S. I enjoyed the 'discussions' thus far and would love to contribute to them when a find a few spare moments.)
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby high eight » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:13 pm

prajuvikas wrote:Nutt as coach...Who is he modeled after? is he Sven Goran Ericksen? or Wenger? or Rinus Michels?

He's clearly not Sir Alex Fergeson though is he...


(P.S. I enjoyed the 'discussions' thus far and would love to contribute to them when a find a few spare moments.)


There is a lot of Sven Goran Ericksen about him. That whole "First one must consider the horizons of possibilty....." speech is pure Sven (with a touch of Eric Cantona).

I think there may be a hint of ("Football is not just a matter of life and death: it's much more important than that") Bill Shankly about him, too.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby Tiffany » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:01 pm

I only read UA once so I am reading it again. Not really into football, but I'll see if I like it better on the second reading.
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:04 pm

Tiffany wrote:I only read UA once so I am reading it again. Not really into football, but I'll see if I like it better on the second reading.
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I'm not into football either, but found it much better on the second reading. ;)
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby Tiffany » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:13 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Tiffany wrote:I only read UA once so I am reading it again. Not really into football, but I'll see if I like it better on the second reading.
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I'm not into football either, but found it much better on the second reading. ;)


Will let you know what I feel on the second reading, Tony, it starts out OK. :D
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Re: Unseen Academicals ***SPOILERS***

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:46 pm

One of the problems for me on the first read, was there was almost too much happening.
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