Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

[ChristianBecker]

Jingo was my first "favourite" discworld book. I'd already read some when I started Jingo and liked them all very much (except "Equal Rites" - but that might be because I read it in German), but with Jingo I felt there was something special.
It probably was the fact that this book not only was funny, but also was the first I read that went deeper, that was not only funny/ a good read but also reflected on human nature and its nastier sides, in this case xenophobia, racism and jingoism.

Now I haven't read Jingo for some time, but from what is posted here I think I can offer a hypothesis on the Leshp/Leonardo problem.

We (seem to) that Leonardo has seen Leshp several years ago and made sketches. No one else still living seems to have seen Leshp in recent years, else they'd know it'd soon vanish again. Some claim that Leonardo must have made his sketches below the surface of the water (however he achieved that), whereas others say this can't be because he must clearly have been under the island, so it must have been afloat.
Depending on this, some say that the submarine was built by Leonardo before he was imprisoned or that it was built just after Leshp reemerged.

So, my hypothesis:
The submarine had been built by Leonardo before his first trip to the then sunken island Leshp. Somehow he heard the legend, perhaps also heard that Leshp has sunken more than once and that made him curious. Since at the moment Leshp wasn't on the surface, Leonardo would need to invent a device that allowed for submarine research. No problem for a mind like his. He then dived in the approximate area where Leshp was supposed to be and found it submerged. He could make his sketches in the relative dryness of his submarine. As for the the issue how he got under the island if it was submerged: Either it was floating several feet above the ground, which is possible in water if there's enough gas to hold it there, or he found a tunnel that brought him into island where he then could see that there is a huge dome which is now mostly water filled but will fill up with gas sooner or later and float the island.

He did not dismantle his boat then because he clearly states that he dismantles his inventions because Vetinari wants it so; but at this time he wasn't a prisoner. After his imprisonment he couldn't do it anymore and probably had his mind on something completely different anyway.

It is also possible that Leonardo WASN'T below Leshp and only deduced that there must be a cavern that periodically filled with gas and made the island float.

Be that as it may, I agree with those who think that Leonardo has seen the submerged Leshp.

[Tonyblack]

I certainly think that the suggestion is that Leonard made sketches of the island while it was still submerged and to do that he'd have had to had some sort of device that allowed him to go underwater. So it was either the submarine that is in Jingo or some sort of earlier version of it. I simply don't buy the idea that he made sketches while it was above the water.

[raisindot]

There's no evidence that Leonard had actually gone 'under' the island when he made his sketches. The only cue that he had been there was that one line where he mentions he made some sketches of the place.

That, plus the pre-existence of the going-under-the-water boat kept in storage under a lock that hadn't been tampered with, suggests that Leonard, either by accident or in exploration of legend, used the boat to travel to where the island was supposed to be, found it underwater, and sketched it, presumably from "above."

It is either Leonard or Vetinari who conjectures that that the island is floating, and their trip under it may be the first to ever discover this phenomenon.

[Teppic]

What are we to assume happened in the other trouser-leg of time that led to the war going ahead and Ankh Morpork being invaded? The Disorganiser's death-roll is one of the most chilling things in all of Pratchett's works but it got me thinking.

If Vetinari still went to Leshp in the boat, and still hatched the same plan after having realised what they were fighting over was not worth a war why would Vetinari's plan fail in the other timeline? Without Vimes and 71-Hour Ahmet there to 'moderate' would full surrender really not have been accpeted by the Klatchians? And if that's the case Vetinari's plan seems shaky at best because he wouldn't have expected Vimes to have been there. If, in the alternative timeline Vetinari got to the tent and offered surrender and it was refused, it shows the Patrician has failed to read the scenario or the people involved. That's not the Havelock Vetinari we know.

The alternative scenario is that Vetinari didn't reach the tent (or maybe didn't even attempt to), the surrender wasn't offered and the war went ahead. There could be any number of reasons why that might've been the case. But it still raises questions about Vetinari doesn't it?

I suppose the question is, how risky was Vetinari's strategy? The tone of the book and that of Vetinari always seems to be one of confidence, of being three-steps ahead, but was this really the case?

Did he cooly know what he was doing all along - which means he would have known the island would sink, and would have known the surrender would take place sans Vimes' presence (in which case you have to re-evaluate Vimes' role in preventing the war)? Or are we to believe his plan was a wild-goose chase, a last desperate throw of the dice from a man who had been replaced by Rust and who had failed to defend his city?

If it's the former, then Vimes' exploits are diminished and his chase becomes a sideshow because the surrender (or invasion) would've happened anyway, with or without him. If it's the latter, then we have an interesting new picture of the Patrician as a man who can lose control of a situation completely.

[raptornx01]

don't forget, the meeting in the desert only happened when it did BECAUSE vimes left. remember, Rust left early because of Vimes' little venture.

and the other discussion, is this really a debatable thing, about leonard and leshp? i thought it was pretty clear. Leonard had "the boat" before being imprisoned. he had used it to make sketches on leshp while it was submerged. (and the island only comes up every few hundred or thousand years) he, and/or vetinari figured there must be an UNDER to the island, or else it couldn't have "risen", so went under it to be sure.

In all, Jingo is my least favorite watch book, and one of my least favorite DW books. the death roll is a great and powerful scene though. if i was incharge of a movie based on it, that would be something I'd fight to keep.

[raisindot]

The surrender wouldn't have happened. Klatch would have invaded, would have destroyed the Watch, and most likely all of the AM militias, since none of them were in any way prepared for real war. Vetinari would never have been in a position where he would have been able to surrender under the terms he proposed, because, technically, the AM in the "alternative" universe was under Lord Rust's control. The Prince would probably have come with the invading force, found Rust holed up at the Palace, and forced him into a complete surrender that would put AM under Klathcian control.

Vetinari orchestrated Vimes' involvement, starting by giving VImes the hint that as a gentry he was entitled to raise his own militia. Without this spurring, Vimes would never have started the chain of events that led to the "good" resolution. Vetinari also knew that if Vimes went to Klatch Lord Rust would follow. This would remove the AM army from AM itself, allowing the battle to take place on Klatchian soil, which would have saved AM's civilian population from a violent invasion. Vetinari's ultimate goal is to preserve AM, even a captured AM, even if some fools (like Rust) needed to sacrificed in the process.

One must assume that there was a pivotal "Trousers of Time" point at which the Prince chose to invade AM or not invade AM. This moment hinged on whether Rust's force remained in AM or invaded Klatch. As the narrative tells us, the Prince knew the moment Rust's boat was nearing the shore. (He wasn't even aware that Vimes was there, or at least didn't care.) Knowing that Rust was there made him decide NOT to send the invasion fleet and instead confront Rust's army on home territory. So, essentially, Vimes' 'good' Trousers of Time moment set up a chain of events that ultimately saved AM from invasion--and saved the Watch from destruction.

[raptornx01]

I don't think Lord Rust would have stayed, it has been said repeatedly that he may be an idiot, but he isn't a coward, but he certainly wouldn't have left when he did. Most likely the Klatchian fleet would have showed up while they were still getting prepared to leave. The AM army invading the Klatchian desert also gave Rust a bit more control of the situation, which is how that meeting was able to take place. the convivial tea and biscuit before the war. Since the prince was unfamiliar with the concept (and was disgusted by it even when he found out) he wouldn't have pussyfooted around once they reached AM. He would have attacked directly and without warning. and as you said, the people of AM would have been wholly unprepared for it.

[Alanz]

Although i'm still a relative newbee to Sir Terry's books I really enjoyed JINGO, I thought it was very funny in places and it all turned out right in the end, I thought the Watch members were very funny.It was as always very well written.