Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

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Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Cool Middle Name » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:39 pm

I'm currently re-reading the book Night Watch and I wonder what exactly is happening with these two timelines. Sweeper says they 'join up' to a single present.
But the Sams from both timelies have different memories. What happens to the Sam that Vimes tutors in the book if there is one timeline?
When Vimes goes back to the future does he suddenly have memories of both timelines? Does everyone have these memories?
Or does Young Sam disappear out of existence?

What exactly happened to the timeline that Vimes travelled to? Different things happened. People lived who died in the original. Carcer pushed things away with the confrontation at the location of the Conspiracy.

Do they remember both timelines or just timeline 1 or 2? Vetinari appeared to remember Timeline 2 with Vimes.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Cool Middle Name » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:41 pm

Or, hah, the self-repairing paradoxes. Pianos fall from the sky and crush the people who lived that weren't supposed to, yes?
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Sister Jennifer » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:36 am

Young Sam doesn't disappear, he grows up to be our Sam Vimes. His memories are of being taught by John Keel. But after what happens in Night Watch, Vimes knows he was Keel. That's right, I think :think: .

There's a Night Watch discussion thread on here though. You might find it interesting to read.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:45 pm

That's it Sister J - for young Sam his mentor was always John Keel so no paradox in the earlier timeline as, so far as everyone else (except perhaps Vetinari) was concerned, the younger selves of Nobby and Fred etc never knew 'John Keel' away from those events. Even old Sam had a problem remembering what Keel looked like aside from the eye patch, so the switch (if there ever was one) was never in danger of panning out differently with the real Keel's corpse being conveniently substituted by the Monks in the confusion of the barricades, so everyone could go back to their rightful place :D
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Dotsie » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:49 pm

There were slight changes to history though, such as when Vimes broke up the meeting of the rebels because he knew there would be trouble. So Sam's experiences were definitely different, although the outcome was the same.

I guess there's two trouser legs of time, but the cuffs are sown together...sort of like bondage trouser legs of time.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby raptornx01 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:00 pm

Thats one way to put it :lol:

Sweeper even said so himself, the is one past, one future, but two presents.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:46 pm

raptornx01 wrote:Thats one way to put it :lol:

Sweeper even said so himself, the is one past, one future, but two presents.

Sort of but only until Old Sam goes back to his proper timeline - from that point the present becomes the one where Keel died and Future Sam took his place - but young Sam who went on to grow into Old Sam pre-timeloop never knew any different until he gets back. Same thing for Vetinari when he encounters Sam at the Small Gods cemetary - the Keel he knew when he was young was always Keel so far as he was concerned until he found out.

It's just a perception of the present and young Sam isn't fundamentally altered because he only ever knew 'Keel' as Keel so his history isn't really altered in any meaningful way. Old Sam is still the sum of his experience so his own memory of Keel as Keel is still intact and of course made him the man he is in the present, in part because Keel was his ideal and hero - that all still gets tarnished once history is re-established. In fact you could argue that without either Keel to idolise, Sam would never have become so disillusioned with the Watch and it's degradation under the Patrician(s) who come in after that first Lilac day and why he ended up a drunk in love with a City that only existed in his memory of what might have been.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby TimBou » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:14 am

Wow that makes my head spin... Time must have worn several different pairs of trousers in the course of all of that! I hope he/she listened to his/her mother and at least went out wearing clean underwear.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:30 pm

:lol:
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby Imagineer » Sat May 05, 2012 7:28 pm

Hi all,

I believe that Sister Jennifer may have it spot on.

In Back to the Future, do I have this right? According to Doc Brown, the young Marty should never me the older Marty.

If the Marty of 1985 messed up and created a time paradox, the universe would cease to exist.

Unlike Doc Brown, the wizards didn't seem to be terribly concerned.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby raptornx01 » Sun May 06, 2012 5:57 am

different realities, different rules. in the universe of the discworld time is more resilient. this is even said several times in various books. time could give a wasp's bottom if you step on an ant or not. it'll spring back.

and the history monks help as well.
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby cabbagehead » Sun May 06, 2012 3:36 pm

In Back to the Future, do I have this right? According to Doc Brown, the young Marty should never me the older Marty.


Young Biff met his older self in part 2. It went well for him for a while (but Old Biff disintegrates when he travels back to 2015, so we know he didn't live as long in the new reality he created).
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Re: Night Watch - What happened to Young Sam?

Postby raptornx01 » Sun May 06, 2012 11:39 pm

Marty's mom shot him :lol:
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