Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Group

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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:32 pm

Dotsie wrote:I see what you mean about him being a hero, but you make it sound as if moving on to the next person was because he sees they need his help. Actually, he needs the boys help, to make money.


Maurice is the same as Moist. He's in it for the thrill of making money, not for the actual money itself. That's why he lets the rats keep his share of the money they'd already made. He doesn't really need money - he's a cat! But it's fun to get.

Dotsie wrote:...but his newly found conscience lets him down later in the book, and he can't manipulate (or abandon) as easily as he used to.


I don't agree. Throughout the whole book he is manipulative. By not abandoning the rats when he had a chance (because of his newly acquired conscience) is nothing to do with the waning of his manipulative ability.

Maurice is a cat. Cats manipulate people.

"Since then (becoming intelligent) he'd done what cats always did. He steered people. Now some of the rats counted as people too, of course. But people were people, even if they had four legs......"

(BTW nice reverse "Um..." :lol: )
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:49 pm

Thanks :wink:
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:10 pm

The changelings are complex, but have simple desires.

You could write pages about their theological discussions and how the Mr Floppsy book is their Bible etc etc.

Maurice is simple, but has complex desires.

"I suppose there isn't a Big Cat in the sky, is there?"
"I'M SURPRISED AT YOU, MAURICE. OF COURSE THERE ARE NO CAT GODS. THAT WOULD BE TOO MUCH LIKE....WORK."
Maurice nodded. One good thing about being a cat, apart from the extra lives, was that the theology was a lot simpler.

This book was written by a cat owner. :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:08 pm

Indeed - cute conniving clever cuddly (when they want something) little buggers :lol:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:34 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Indeed - cute conniving clever cuddly (when they want something) little buggers :lol:


and then widdle or puke in your sandals to show you they love you OR how they really feel.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby kakaze » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:59 am

Do you suppose Darktan's trap-scar was like stigmata? Like he's a parody of Christ?

It seems interesting to me that it was a rat (Darktan) who was stable, steady, intelligent, rational, and completely non-metaphysical who turned into some kind of messiah.
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:38 am

He's certainly (with Sardine's advice) using the trap scar to full advantage and I can see the analogy. Dark Tan does become very much the leader after that and Dangerous Beans seems to disappear from the story pretty much after Maurice saves him. :)
Last edited by Tonyblack on Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:19 am

A lot of respect for the rats I had disappeared when Darktan was prepared to lie about religion purely as a means to cling on to power. Sadly, the other rats were prepared to believe him, so already the seeds of the rats' society's self-destruction have already been sown.

Whereas the true hero not only actually met the bone rat, but also leapt on him making his little scythe skitter away across the floor.

At least Maurice was honest! :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:37 am

Soppy ole idealist! :P
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Postby poohbcarrot » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:41 am

Me, John Lennon and Carrot!
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Postby swreader » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:15 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:A lot of respect for the rats I had disappeared Sadly, the other rats were prepared to believe him, so already the seeds of the rats' society's self-destruction have already been sown.

Whereas the true hero not only actually met the bone rat, but also leapt on him making his little scythe skitter away across the floor.

At least Maurice was honest! :D


Umm....Maurice was honest? When, where? When was he not assisting the rats to feather his own nest (like telling them the silver money was worth more than the gold money).

And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "when Darktan was prepared to lie about religion purely as a means to cling on to power. " There is no question that Darktan had a life-changing experience (or perhaps a near-death experience). But he's not the one who suggests using the tooth marks from the trap-which isn't exactly a religious experience. That was Sardine who, having told him that he changed after being caught in the trap says,
"Seems to me, boss, that anyone who could stare down the Bone Rat . . .well, no one is gong to want to mess with him, am I right? A man who wears the teethmarks of the Bone Rat like a belt? Uh-uh, no.People'll followa rat like that. That was a good thing you did back there, with ol' Hamnpork. Burying him and widdling on top and putting a sign on him -- well, the old rats like that, and so do the young ones. Shows'em you're thinking for everyone."

And Darktan's immediate reaction is to say that he needs Dangerous Beans because he "knows the map for thinking. We've got to think our way out of this. Running around and squeaking won't work anymore."

Further, to be technical, it's not Maurice but the dead Maurice who pounces on the Bone Rat, and is immediately sorry when he is picked up by the scruff of the neck by DEATH. He performs his one noble action in giving up one of his lives for Dangerous Beans at this point--but even he can't explain why, and hopes no one finds out about it because it's so uncatlike. Further, he doesn't want to remember that he's done this because it'd be too embarrassing.

Maurice, perhaps, could be called a kind of anti-hero. Someone who has the time of his life strutting up and down and ordering everyone around. But since he can no longer do that in this town, he leaves.
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:30 pm

I don't think Dark Tan had any opposition at that stage. Hamnpork was dead and everyone automatically looked to him as the leader. It seems to me that he was a somewhat reluctant leader at that and would have been far happier leading his squad.

I think that he may have reluctantly started a legend when he got trapped in the erm... trap and no amount of trying to deny it would have stopped that - so why not use it? I don't think Dark Tan was trying to be a Christ-like figure - if anyone came back from the dead it was Dangerous Beans and he is more Christ-like if you want to make that comparison.

And yes, Maurice is something of an anti-hero. :D
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Postby poohbcarrot » Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:46 am

Terry Pratchett wrote: (Sardines)"And you should let them think what they like about you..."
But there's big rats like Inbrine and Sellby and a bunch of others, boss, and now that Hamnpork's dead, they might think they should be the leader. Get my drift?"
"No"
Sardines sighed, "I reckon you do, boss....
...Well, thanks to chattery little Nourishing, you're the rat that looked the Bone Rat right in the face and came back, aren't you?
...Seems to me that anyone who could stare down the Bone Rat....well, no one is going to mess with him


Tonyblack wrote:I don't think Dark Tan had any opposition at that stage. Hamnpork was dead and everyone automatically looked to him as the leader.


So, Darktan had opposition to the leadership, but by perpetuating the "Bone Rat" lie, all opposition was squashed.

swreader wrote:And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "when Darktan was prepared to lie about religion purely as a means to cling on to power. "


See above.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:47 am

swreader wrote:Umm....Maurice was honest? When, where? When was he not assisting the rats to feather his own nest (like telling them the silver money was worth more than the gold money).


The silver and gold coins was just Maurice "playing the game". He let the rats have all the money in the end, didn't he?

Not eating any rat who could talk.

Instead of abandoning the rats when he had a chance, he risked his life to save them.

Sacrificing one of his own lives to save Dangerous Beans.

The rats dreamed of living in peace with humans, Maurice arranged that.

All Keith wanted to do was play music, Maurice arranged that.

Maurice arranged for all the keekees to go free.

And while every rat and human had their dreams fullfilled, what did Maurice get for all his trouble? Absolutely zero!

Hardly the selfish "feathering of his own nest" that you imply, but the actions of a decent, brave, selfless, intelligent and HONEST individual .

(you've got the "Umm...." disease too! :lol: )
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:50 am

But you're suggesting that Dark Tan pretends he rose again from the dead and therefore is somehow supernatural - right?

I don't think that's the suggestion so much as that he's one tough rat who survived being crushed in a trap and has the scars to prove it. As you point out in the section you've posted, it's Nourishing who starts any sort of myth. He told her at the time that it was because of a rusty spring that he survived.

I don't think he's trying to fool anyone that he's a Christ-like figure. :)
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