Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:33 am

*clears throat*

A Mary Sue (male-term: Marty/Gary Stu) is commonly a character who is too perfect. While 'normal' characters have their ups and downs and flaws, such character only has ups. While not necessarily the best of the best at everything (though those are the pinacle of sue-dom) they are characters to always turn up on top.
When faced with someone better than them at something, expect them to do something to earn that person's deepest respect, as unspectacular as what they did might have been. If faced with a problem they couldn't possibly overcome with the abilities established so far they are likely to 'discover' that they can do something that'll get them out of the distress in a wink.
These are characters that rarely fail at anything. And even if they do it'll turn out their failure was the best thing to can happen. Flaws will be seen as lovable characterquirks and never really hinder them at anything, unless the story wants it that way, often just so another outstanding ability can be presented.
In short: The term, nowadays, refers to characters that seem incapable of failing.

for further info:

TvTropes' Entry
Mary Sue Litmus Test

Of course, everything is to be taken with a grain of salt.

And yes, the term is chucked around nowadays to denounce characters one doesn't like, fact is, these characters exist and are commonly a sign of bad/lazy/unexperienced/uncaring writing.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:15 am

No, its not always meant like that. Marty/mary/gary whichever (also called Avatars or self insertion/SI) is really just a fictional personification of the author. its doesn't mean lazy writing or a perfect character, or even have to be a bad thing. its simply a character that best represents the author and his/her sensibilities.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:26 am

There is a difference between Author-Avatar or Self-Insert and Mary Sues. While they often go hand-in-hand, Author-Avatars or straight-out Self-Insert aren't necessarily all Sues. Neither are all sues AAs/SIs.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:39 am

I am not interested in what a Mary Sue is and I'm certainly not interested in going to other sites to find out.

When you make your posts, can you please assume that the other readers here have no idea what these things mean and just explain what you mean?

I don't think that's too much to ask - is it?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Will you all stop it with the "Gary Sue" and "Marty Stus" already! :roll:

Most of us have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please try and explain what you mean rather than just using these stupid phrases.


Tony, Tony, Tony. If only you had spent a minute, like I did, to go to that center of all verified and accurate information, Wikipedia, you would have read this entry:

"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labelled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names."

The highlighting of 'fanfiction' is intentional. :D
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:17 pm

Canon Sue

While yes, Sues are more commonly found in fanfiction that doesn't mean characters like that aren't present in published novels as well.
Have you never read a book or original fiction online where a character bored/annoyed you with his/her perfection, political overcorrectness, overachieving etc?

EDIT:
In any case:
The Case with Vimes:
He started out as someone who never required any special abilities to solve his problems. But in the recent books he has been given just such powers to overcome situation he faced before (or basically faced before) and therefore shouldn't actually need any more skills than before.
The reason might be that he has become a fan-favourite and authors of all skills tend, without being aware of it, most often, to give such characters more presence and 'awesome' abilities, just to please the readers.

EDIT 2:
If you look around the net and look up some reviews for Snuff you will stumple over some reviews calling Snuff the best Discworld book ever, despite the reviewer not having read it yet, left alone purchased it yet. The reason for full points?
Vimes.
No other reason.
Hell, I even found reviews of MR and UA once from people who hated the books (some even more than I in the case of UA) but still said gave them (near) full points because of Vimes.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:35 pm

raisindot wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:Will you all stop it with the "Gary Sue" and "Marty Stus" already! :roll:

Most of us have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please try and explain what you mean rather than just using these stupid phrases.


Tony, Tony, Tony. If only you had spent a minute, like I did, to go to that center of all verified and accurate information, Wikipedia, you would have read this entry:

"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labelled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names."

The highlighting of 'fanfiction' is intentional. :D

Nope - I'm still not interested. :naughty:

If people here can't say what they mean without resorting to stupid references from other sites, then perhaps they shouldn't bother.

As for would-be writers who use these phrases - well it doesn't say much about their communication skills. :snooty:
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Dotsie » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:33 pm

LilMaibe wrote:If you look around the net and look up some reviews for Snuff you will stumple over some reviews calling Snuff the best Discworld book ever, despite the reviewer not having read it yet, left alone purchased it yet.

So, what's it called when someone hates a book before they've read it?
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:53 pm

Dotsie wrote:
LilMaibe wrote:If you look around the net and look up some reviews for Snuff you will stumple over some reviews calling Snuff the best Discworld book ever, despite the reviewer not having read it yet, left alone purchased it yet.

So, what's it called when someone hates a book before they've read it?


Good intuition.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:19 pm

Tony, its merely a simplified explanation of an idea. ofcourse it only works if someone understands what it means, but one that in and of itself isn't bad or wrong.

Though when i used it it was in no way a condemnation of terry in any way shape or form. unlike some here. I feel, and have always felt since his earliest appearance that Vimes, of all the DW characters, is the one that is the closest thing to being terry in book form in terms of personality. The one that shows the most how terry thinks and feels about the world around us and his (terry's) experiences through life (though not exactly in a literal sense). I've always felt, based on everything i know about terry that when vimes speaks or thinks about the world it is coming from the heart of the author. that when Vimes refers to class issues, its terry voicing his thoughts, that when Vimes and Sybil are together, we see a bit of terry and his wife together. and on and on.

I do find it sad that some want to turn that idea around for there own hateful reasons.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:59 pm

raptornx01 wrote:Tony, its merely a simplified explanation of an idea. ofcourse it only works if someone understands what it means, but one that in and of itself isn't bad or wrong.

That's my point exactly. ;)
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Sophie » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:36 pm

Absolutely loved Snuff, couldn't stop reading and have been re-reading. I love Death, but to be honest I was so caught up in the story that I didn't miss him. Also loved the little comment about how Cheery had also had a bit of a crush on Carrot, brilliant touch
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:10 am

Sophie wrote:Absolutely loved Snuff, couldn't stop reading and have been re-reading. I love Death, but to be honest I was so caught up in the story that I didn't miss him. Also loved the little comment about how Cheery had also had a bit of a crush on Carrot, brilliant touch

Welcome to the site, Sophie! :D
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 am

raptornx01 wrote:[...]

I do find it sad that some want to turn that idea around for there own hateful reasons.


Before I feel attacked: Did you mean me?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:41 pm

LilMaibe wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:[...]

I do find it sad that some want to turn that idea around for there own hateful reasons.


Before I feel attacked: Did you mean me?


Oh s**t. Not all this again. Step back from the abyss, Meebs. :D
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