Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:04 pm

I also remember a machine that alters reality, but somehow that was not interesting or important InUniverse...I think...
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:24 pm

On a complete different note on UA: Could someone please give me the line(s) that explain(s) why the orc was spared and why exactly Margolotta took him in and things?
On a different forum someone else was verbally attacked for saying the book never gives the explanation, with the attack claiming he (the original poster) is just too stupid to read a book and that it is clearly spelled out in the text. Right now we are trying to prove that guy wrong as he couldn't give a pagenumber.
Are we wrong and it is given very clearly in the text or is he wrong (well, he also claimed Carter attacked Andy in the end...)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby high eight » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:32 am

LilMaibe wrote:On a complete different note on UA: Could someone please give me the line(s) that explain(s) why the orc was spared and why exactly Margolotta took him in and things?
On a different forum someone else was verbally attacked for saying the book never gives the explanation, with the attack claiming he (the original poster) is just too stupid to read a book and that it is clearly spelled out in the text. Right now we are trying to prove that guy wrong as he couldn't give a pagenumber.
Are we wrong and it is given very clearly in the text or is he wrong (well, he also claimed Carter attacked Andy in the end...)


Pages 390 - 392 Doubleday hardback edition. The discussion between Vetinari and Lady Margolotta over dinner - relevant quotes:

"And they had nothing" said Margolotta "No culture, no legends, no history - he could give them those" [P391]

"They deserve their chance and it must be taken now, while the world is at Peace" [P391]

(Vetinari): - "There should be no slaves, even slaves to instinct"
"One person can make a difference" said Margolotta [P391]

And then Lady Margolotta asks Mr Nutt to go to Uberwald and bring the surviving orcs out of the dark (as she puts it) [P394]

Add that to Mr Nutt own memories after he psychoanalyses himself and Margolottas plan becomes perfectly obvious. [Various pages from P268 to the end of the book]

So yes, I would say that you are wrong and the person who originally brought up the subject is pretty dumb.

Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:20 am

No, that's not exactly what I meant, but...well, thanks. I was looking for the 'greater' reason. He claims that the books gives Margo's motive why she took the orc in, why he was spared and why she wants him to aid the others back into society (as in -why she wants them 'out of the dark'-).
Got that quote by chance?

EDIT: To elaborate:
In said thread the comparsion to the warcraft-story 'lord of the clans' was brought up (not by me, before anyone accuses me) as the human there had a reason to take the orc-child in (take over the world by teaching the child the heights of human civilization aka tactical warfare) while in UA no real reason is given. We assumed that -boredom- was Margo's reason before that bloke came up and accussed the whole thread of being to stupid to read and that her reason is clearly given in the text.
I'm pretty certain he's a troll, though. But better safe than sorry.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby high eight » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:59 pm

LilMaibe wrote:No, that's not exactly what I meant, but...well, thanks. I was looking for the 'greater' reason. He claims that the books gives Margo's motive why she took the orc in, why he was spared and why she wants him to aid the others back into society (as in -why she wants them 'out of the dark'-).
Got that quote by chance?

EDIT: To elaborate:
In said thread the comparsion to the warcraft-story 'lord of the clans' was brought up (not by me, before anyone accuses me) as the human there had a reason to take the orc-child in (take over the world by teaching the child the heights of human civilization aka tactical warfare) while in UA no real reason is given. We assumed that -boredom- was Margo's reason before that bloke came up and accussed the whole thread of being to stupid to read and that her reason is clearly given in the text.
I'm pretty certain he's a troll, though. But better safe than sorry.


I think the quotes I gave ARE the reason. Pastor Oates found a small colony of surviving orcs in Far Uberwald and told Margolotta about them - she decided (partly through altruism but perhaps partly also to relieve the boredom of immortality - she is a pretty ancient vampire, after all.) to see if they could be civilised. Nutt was sent to the big city to prove it one way or the other.

Typically, it was Vetinari who summed up the reason in one sentence (but then he is that type of person): - "There should be no slaves, even slaves to instinct" - and perhaps he had a selfish motive as well. Imagine Ankh-Morpork being the only state on the Disc with an army of orcs....... :o

Terry doesn't explicitly state all this, of course. He is too subtle a writer for that - but I think that the subtext is there.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Can the thing with Oats actually work chronological?

In any case, you have proven that bloke wrong, as the text giv no clear reason as to why the orc was spared and taken in.
Last edited by LilMaibe on Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby high eight » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:49 pm

LilMaibe wrote:Can the think with Oats actually work chronological?

In any case, you have proven that bloke wrong, as the text giv no clear reason as to why the orc was spared and taken in.


What 'thing'? Carpe Juglum was years before UA

I think I've proved him right. The reasons I gave in my last post were reason enough. Lady Margolotta did it as an act of charity. - And if you're trying to raise a gang to bully this fellow just because he likes UA and you don't, include me OUT. :naughty:
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:00 pm

Carpe Jugulum, yes, but... the orc was already seven when Oats freed him. The thread, btw, has decided he was wrong, as he claimed we were given a reason beyond -I want to see if I can turn them into useful members of society because I am so bored right now-
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby alicenanjing » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Well, for my money, Lady Margolotta is an altruistic person, believe it or not - don't forget she was the one who came up with the Black Ribboners idea, and she was the main sponsor and supporter of the members. Remember, there was a passage in The Fifth Elephant where she leaves what she was doing in order to go to a meeting, because, as she puts it, "Everyone gets so despondent if I'm not there" - or words to that effect. Add that to the fact that it's against a vampire's nature to help another vampire, as another member of the species is basically a competitor, and the picture that emerges is that of a real humanitarian, so to speak. So it's quite logical that she would want to rescue an enslaved child, even if it is an orc child, or help another species out of its terrible situation. It's just the type of person she is.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Ziriath » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:08 pm

Somewhere, maybe in Carpe jugulum, was something like this : ''There are many ways to kill a vampire. Almost as many as vampire species.''.
Some of them have wings (Dragon King), some of them not and can fly without them (The Magpyrs, Margolotta), some of them can turn into a bat, a lot of bats, other animals, even fog (The Magpyrs, Sally, that vampire in Witches abroad, that guy in Reaper man), the other ones do not seem to be able to fly or turn into something else (except ashes)- Otto Chriek, Maladict.
Also there are vampires, who have been born as vampires (Vlad and Lacrimosa), and vampires who used to be humans (Mrs. Magpyr, that guy from Reaper man (do not know his name in English original), some young man from Carpe Jugulum), until they was bitten by a vampire. The latter ones remember the time before they become vampires. I think Margolotta is one of them and has to deal with humanity in a body of vampire.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby alicenanjing » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:23 pm

Could be.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:11 pm

Or the reason is a bigger plan to finish what the evil empire couldn't achieve through deceiving everyone into thinking that vampires and orcs are friendly now.
It is just as possible, isn't it?
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Ziriath » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:08 pm

I agree, but right now I am not speaking about the orc thingy only ( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway). I think about the 'black ribboners' and why she doesn't drink human blood.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby high eight » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 pm

Ziriath wrote:( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway).


Yep, if canon collides with fanon, it's always canon that is wrong......... :roll:
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:01 am

Ziriath wrote:I agree, but right now I am not speaking about the orc thingy only ( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway). I think about the 'black ribboners' and why she doesn't drink human blood.


As said, it could be everything. From that she actually wants to make peace, over an allergy to a decoy (she has an igor, so there is a possibility she drinks conserved blood in secret)

And H8: You keep using that word. I doubt it means what you think it means.
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