Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raisindot » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:37 pm

I'll buy all that, Sharlene. But what if Nanny hadn't coerced the King into action? It seems that at the end that Magrat was on the verge of either killing the queen or least defeating her. Granny didn't know that the King would come; she was depending on Magrat (and perhaps even the townspeople) to get rid of the elves themselves. I just felt the sudden appearance of the king was a deus ex machina designed partly, as you said, to complete the Oberon/Titania analogy, but, perhaps more importantly, to prevent Magrat (and the villagers) from committing 'regelficide.' [SPOILERS AHEAD! STOP READIN' IF YA DON'T WANT NO SPOILERS] That's why I found the way Tiffany dealt with the same challenge in Wee Free Men far more satisfying.
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:45 pm

I have to say that the bit with Nanny bringing the king along has always bothered me in this book. It's one of the reasons why I've never been that fond of Nanny, but this time I could see more of the point of it.

Nanny watches over Granny - keeps an eye on her to make sure she doesn't do anything stupid. Granny is full of pride and that is why, for example, she doesn't think to ask what has been going on at the Dancers and it is why, she tries to beat Diamanda in the staring contest. Nanny effectively saves Granny's face in that contest with the use of Pewsey. And at the end of this book, Nanny puts an end to the problems with the elves.

And Nanny is, as the 'mother' in a unique position to do this - to go to the king. She has, it seems, used the king in his role as a fertility god to get such a large family. The king recognises her as a former worshipper and expects her to continue to worship him. Neither Magrat or Granny would be in a position to demand his help.

Part of the reason for the bit at the start of the book, with Jason shoeing Binky is so that there would be a piece of iron (or four) handy that Nanny could use to cajole the king into helping. But basically, Nanny is using the king a bit like she did with the bag of sweets - to stop Granny from overstretching herself.
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raptornx01 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:00 pm

The thing about the dancing at moonlight, always kept picturing the line from the 89 batman film "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?"
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:07 pm

raisindot wrote:I just felt the sudden appearance of the king was a deus ex machina designed partly, as you said, to complete the Oberon/Titania analogy, but, perhaps more importantly, to prevent Magrat (and the villagers) from committing 'regelficide.'

It's a question of holistics and balance. And, being Terry metaphors. In this case Lancre is the hive, the Elf Queen is the invading leader of a hostile swarm, (perhaps failing in it's old home) and Magrat is 'made' into a Queen starting with Granny starting off the royal jelly feeding up process by giving Verence and then Magrat a good poke? :lol:

The Elf King isn't a deux ex machina and Nanny knew he'd have to act because, win or lose, fail or succeed, what happens to his Queen, happens to him. So the Elf King saves/stops his own Queen from either winning the Lancre hive OR getting killed because that would leave him out of the equation altogether and so he has to oppose her will and get her back into their own realm so his status quo/balance is maintained.

Magrat is made a viable queen by chief worker Granny's shenanigans in forcing through the wedding and in helping defend the hive from 'wasps' like Diamanda and the unicorn and, if you like, Nanny and Casaunda are the CIA sensor-weapons drones sent out to sting the rival hive's drone, the Elf King into taking action :angelic-red:

When something goes out of alignment you need to get it back to equilibrium again and that's what's effectively triggered here with the Dancers acting/not acting as the beekeeper's smoke-gun to defend Lancre from invasion. ;)
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raisindot » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:49 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
raisindot wrote:The Elf King isn't a deux ex machina and Nanny knew he'd have to act because, win or lose, fail or succeed, what happens to his Queen, happens to him.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but the King didn't even seem to be aware that his ex had invaded. He was quite fine hanging around in his glorified men's club while the elves were kicking but in Lancre. If Nanny hadn't prodded him, and had Magrat killed the Elf Queen (indeed, this really should have been a battle of queens, shouldn't it? Was the drone really needed?), how would the King have known what happened? Wouldn't have just remained in his own little bit of the elf world? One assumes that even when an Elf Queen dies, another one replaces it?

Anyway, I saw Nanny's prodding of the king to be more of a back-up plan in case Granny failed--another example of how Nanny always "provides the sweets" for Granny.

Even with the whole equilibrium thing, which makes sense allegorically, I just don't like the way Pterry executed it here. [MORE SPOILERS] It would have been like Vetinari breaking up the right between Vimes and Carcer at the end of Night Watch. Or the King stepping into to stop Tiffany from kicking the Queen's furry ass in Wee Fee Men.
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:28 am

But drones are lazy and need their butts kicking is my whole point - they don't do an awful lot apart from keep the Queen in production and eating until it's time to protect the hive or to swarm when the old Queen's kicked out.

The whole thing about Titania and Oberon is that they've fallen out and he doesn't know (and presumably doesn't care) what she's up to, so it needs a Nanny to go stick it to him that he's in trouble too if he sits around on his thumbs letting the Elf Queen do what the hell she wants :P . Also there's the matter of his already being on the Disc anyway (with Nanny following him at any rate) but not being bothered to do anything except stay under the Long Man as far away from the wife as he can be, since she can't get in until Diamanda and her gang fouls things up. He was already in Lancre having never left effectively and just lazing about under the earth and keeping to the usual rules of engagement? Like a good bloke or a drone should do... :angelic-red:
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Sister Jennifer » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:29 am

I was completely enchanted by Lords and Ladies. TP's elves are my favourite of all the books I've read with elves in them. Much more in keeping with traditional fairy lore. The dynamics between the witches is exceptional but when isn't it. I love the Morris Men. My favourite part though is Jason shoeing Binky. Only a small moment but wonderful. Also, it has one of the best book blurbs, 'And lots of hey-nonny-nonny and blood all over the place.'
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raisindot » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Sister Jennifer wrote:I Also, it has one of the best book blurbs, 'And lots of hey-nonny-nonny and blood all over the place.'


Y'know, I've never read any of the back cover blurbs before. This one is great!
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raptornx01 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:00 pm

Just finished it again, i still can't help but think of the king as the devil and his hideaway as a kind of hell. his description fits some older personifications to a tee. that with my first impressions on the moonlight line i mentioned before just solidifies it in my mind.

and i completely missed the ponder/diamanda reference the rest of the times i went through it. they just seemed to be separate bits of info. the thought that granny was hinting at something never occured to me untill i read this thread.
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:21 am

You have two weeks to read or reread A Hat Full of Sky for the discussion starting Monday 5th March. :D
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:33 am

I'm sorry, I've been somewhat neglecting this discussion lately. :oops: Been going through a major downer the last few weeks and haven't had much enthusiasm for anything. :(

Anyhow - when I first read this book it took me a while to 'get' the bit where Granny controls the unicorn. My first thought was the description of "iron-grey hair", but that didn't make any real sense and it wasn't until I found out more about unicorns that I understood Granny's qualifications.

I think this goes back to one of the themes of the book - alternative universes. The Granny in many of those certainly couldn't have controlled the unicorn and may even have been killed by it.

I do like the way that Terry makes his readers think and learn. :)
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Dotsie » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:02 pm

Tonyblack wrote:I'm sorry, I've been somewhat neglecting this discussion lately. :oops: Been going through a major downer the last few weeks and haven't had much enthusiasm for anything. :(

:( Sorry to hear that Tony, hope you pick up soon :)
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby raptornx01 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:54 pm

yeah, same here, i know that feeling all to well.
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:04 am

You now have one week to read or reread A Hat Full of Sky for the discussion starting on Monday 5th March. :)
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Re: Lords and Ladies Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:07 pm

Dotsie wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:I'm sorry, I've been somewhat neglecting this discussion lately. :oops: Been going through a major downer the last few weeks and haven't had much enthusiasm for anything. :(

:( Sorry to hear that Tony, hope you pick up soon :)

Thanks guys, but I wasn't looking for sympathy, I was trying to get the discussion going again. :lol:
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