Vetinari

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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:22 pm

cabbagehead wrote:
Was Ridcully actually in the mountains in the UA timeline? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the text get rid of the whole -caring for the family's estate-?


No. Ridcully grew up in the city, but he had relatives with an estate in the mountains. Just like Ponder was a city boy with an uncle who was a farmer. I initially thought UA contradicts Moving Pictures wrt Ridcully's background, but from Lords and Ladies it seems that when he visited Lancre as a young wizard-in-training he had not been in the mountains before.


I heard of the theory that the estate he spent 40 years on before he was made Archchancellor because the folks at the UU thought he's an easily-to-get-rid-of-dunce as well, and while it does work, why not spent a single sentence on claryfying things. one sentence along the lines of -and then he married your mother and gave up the butchering to work on her family's estate- or something...:(
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Re: Vetinari

Postby cabbagehead » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:59 pm

Well, I don't think Ridcully Sr necessarily left Ankh Morpork. The estate could have belonged to any member of the extended family on either side. Mustrum was a city boy, started at UU, traveled to the mountains one summer, failed to catch Esme, returned to UU until he was 27 or so. Then whichever relative died and left an estate in need of care and Mustrum went there to spend 40+ years (the + is because of his age of 71 at the time of Soul Music).

Why not explain it? Because Pratchett hardly ever does. He throws about background details but it isn't clear if he has a full and consistent picture in his mind of each character's backstory. For example, I'm not at all sure he has an idea how Vetinari became Patrician (and at such a young age, apparently). Or say, Sybil: at 14 she lived with her family at the house in Pseudopolis Yard. At 16 she lived with her father on Scoone Avenue. And at some point she attended a boarding school (was it the same as Quirm College?).
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:41 am

The difference with Ridcully is that his backstory was 'semi-plotrelevant': in Moving Pictures because it is the reason why they picked him as Archchancellor, in UA to cue that huge-hands-gag (what was that about anyway)
Together with the information about his grandfather in UA the impression forms that there never was a family estate. (YMMV)
When you, as author, change a character's background/personality and/or the general rules of the setting you are OUGHT to give an explanation, no matter who you are. It's an unwritten contract between author and readers.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby cabbagehead » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:05 pm

We know that at some point Ridcully got into hunting. The crossbow-wielding is rather essential to his characterization. (Of course there's a huge market for crossbows in the city, but I don't see Ridcully as an unlicensed assassin, nor as any other criminal nor a vigilante watchman so I don't see a context for him to use the crossbow in the city on a regular basis.) And we know he was not at UU during the early books. I think there is an explicit mention of how he was not around during the time of the Sourcerer in a later book. So spending time in the country fits.

A family estate doesn't have to come directly from one's ancestors. A childless uncle would work just fine (see the case of Arthur the fruit-seller who became a vampire via inheriting the estate of some distant relative).

If Pratchett didn't explain the 'change' either he didn't notice there was one or he didn't think there was anything worth commenting on. Based on Lords and Ladies, he had Ridcully growing up in the city way back then, but people weren't asking - 'if he didn't actually grow up in the mountains how did he come by the family estate from 4 books ago?' That you only noticed the 'change' in UA doesn't mean this is anything new to Pratchett (though I doubt he planned details such as the elder Ridcully's profession early on).
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Possible.
On a note here: What WAS that 'running gag' with the huge hands about?
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Re: Vetinari

Postby DaveC » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:11 pm

People tend to have huge foam hands at sports events, Baseball, American Football, even Gladiators on TV. :)
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:02 am

DaveC wrote:People tend to have huge foam hands at sports events, Baseball, American Football, even Gladiators on TV. :)


THAT is the reason? Please, someone tell me that it isn't....
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Andy M » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:28 pm

Wasn't Ridcully the only wizard who actually WAS away from UU when that business with the sorcerer took place - while the other wizards were only claiming to have been visiting an aunt in Quirm or busy studying in their rooms and definitely were not involved in any way (except Rincewind with his sock and a half brick)

Getting back on track though I think Vetinari has already trained his successor, it’s just that he is the master of manipulating from behind the scenes and is smart enough(or subtle?) not to let anyone know that.

So it could be almost anyone. . .

. . .except Nobby of course, not even Vetinari could pull off that one.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:20 am

Yep, Ridcully was the only one who actually wasn't involved in the whole mess. That and that the other wizards thought he'd be 'easy to dispose of' once things calmed down again was what got him the position as Archchancellor.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Ziriath » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:43 pm

You (nearly) all are like the guild leaders in Feet of Clay or The Truth. Vetinari is neither dead nor in a bad condition, and you are searching for a successor. I think even Terry doesn't know, who would it be.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Tonyblack » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:06 pm

Ziriath wrote:You (nearly) all are like the guild leaders in Feet of Clay or The Truth. Vetinari is neither dead nor in a bad condition, and you are searching for a successor. I think even Terry doesn't know, who would it be.

I agree! Terry would be crazy to get rid of Vetinari. :roll:
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Re: Vetinari

Postby cabbagehead » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:02 pm

Well, when I get involved in an imagined world I like to know it remains in good, trustworthy hands after I put the last book down. We see promise of continuity with Tiffany eventually becoming the old wise witch as she saw herself in I Shall Wear Midnight, Ponder ready to run UU all by himself (or via some other figurehead), the Watch becoming a stable organization that no longer depends on Vimes - it has both Carrot and Angua as captains and Detritus training the recruits, etc. But the city of Ankh Morpork still depends on Vetinari running it. While many people prefer his way of doing things to his predecessors it isn't clear anyone knows how he runs the city, or if some do - that they'd be able to take over after him.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:44 am

Right on, cabbagehead. The thing is, you can't wait until Vetinari dies or gets too old to rule to find a successor. The reason being the same reason why nobody tries very seriously to replace Vetinari: there simply isn't anyone around who could do his job one half as effectively. This means you can't just wait until he drops dead and then look around and say: okay, boys and girls, who wants a promotion? You have to find a likely lad (or gel) with just the right mix of talents, background and potential and then train them for twenty years or so and get them to face all sorts of dangers, problems, challenges and aggravation to see if and when they'll crack under the strain. And then, of course, there's always the chance that your candidates will decide that all this is just not worth it, it's too much trouble for the sake of a bunch of ungrateful citizens who can't be bothered to appreciate them, and go and manage the family estates instead. So you may have to start again.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Cool Middle Name » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm

Considering everything Pratchett has done in the AM books, and the fact Vimes is unwillingly promoted time and time again, I suspect he would offer it to him.

Vimes wouldn't accept, of course, but would he be FORCED to?

But if Vetinari left DW, then we would know Pratchett's writing career is over. In fact it might already be, what with Snuff on the shelves and him becoming more and more unable.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Cool Middle Name » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:03 pm

cabbagehead wrote:Well, when I get involved in an imagined world I like to know it remains in good, trustworthy hands after I put the last book down. We see promise of continuity with Tiffany eventually becoming the old wise witch as she saw herself in I Shall Wear Midnight, Ponder ready to run UU all by himself (or via some other figurehead), the Watch becoming a stable organization that no longer depends on Vimes - it has both Carrot and Angua as captains and Detritus training the recruits, etc. But the city of Ankh Morpork still depends on Vetinari running it. While many people prefer his way of doing things to his predecessors it isn't clear anyone knows how he runs the city, or if some do - that they'd be able to take over after him.

Wait a second - Angua was promoted?

In snuff, right?
EDIT: So we never SAW her get promoted, she was mentioned in ISWM as being a Captain.
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