Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:24 pm

Bouncy Castle wrote:Were they in The Truth? Can't remember.


Nobby was. He was 'standing guard' at the crime scene when De Worde was doing his own investigation.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:09 pm

On the note of Pearwood's post:
Do you folks think one can sort the Discworld books like 'comic ages'
With the first 5-7 books being it's 'stone age' the things thereafter up to Nightwatch being the golden age, then a brief silver age with GP and Thud (not counting MR) and that now it has entered the dark age?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Pearwood » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:26 pm

Roughly though I'm not sure I would agree with you with where the borders lie. I think the Golden Age would start with Mort (I like the first 3 books but Terry was finding his feet with them I think - Light Fantastic would be my pick of the bunch) and I would end it with The Last Hero. The Last Hero seems like a sort of celebration of what came before and I actually half expected it to be the last book. After that I find it all pretty mixed so it's hard to define what would be silver age and what would be dark age. For the record, I thought Monstrous Regiment was much better than GP or Thud. Wee Free Men was also very good.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:32 pm

The border vanish indeed. But the trend that less and less people like the past 3-4 (whether you count ISWM or not) books for pretty much the same reasons is weirdly there.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:05 pm

I've always thought the Pterry's literary trajectory is very similar to that of Shakespeare. Both started off as rather derivative writers trying to outdo contemporaries, but developed increasing depth over time, with signature works serving as "signposts" of evolution of their mastery.

I think of Pterry's first few books as the equivalent of Shakespeare's first few Richard VI plays. Nothing to write home about.

"Mort" is Pterry's Richard III--a play that signalled a sudden broadening of depth and originality.

"Small Gods" is Pterry's "Merchant of Venice"; after a period of gradually increasingly depth, Pterry, like Shakespeare. demonstrates a whole new level of insights into the human condition that hadn't appeared in previous works.

From this point on, for both authors, the work gradually gets better and better with a large number of bona fide masterpieces produced, until a gradual decline, which (for me at least) started with Making Money, the equivalent of Shakespeare's Coriolanus, and the lesser works like UA and Snuff, being Pterry's Timon of Athens and Cymbeline, with the occasional remaining good work--I Shall Wear Midnight--in Pterry's case--serving as a symbolic code in the same way The Tempest served, in some ways, as Shakespeare's.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:31 am

Appearances of members of the Watch in non-Watch books:

Moving Pictures - Fred Colon and Nobby
Reaper Man - Fred Colon
Soul Music - Fred Colon and Nobby appear, Carrot is mentioned
Maskerade - Detritus and Nobby
Hogfather - Nobby and Visit (Carrot is mentioned indirectly)
The Truth - Nobby, Fred Colon, Vimes, Angua, Detritus, Igor, maybe a few others
The Last Hero - Carrot and Vimes
Monstrous Regiment - Vimes, Angua, Reg Shoe and Buggy
Going Postal - Vimes, Angua, Nobby, others?
Making Money - Vimes, Angua, Nobby, Fred Colon, Carrot, Detritus, Haddock
Unseen Academicals - Vimes, Angua, Haddock, Bluejohn ... ?
I Shall Wear Midnight - Vimes, Carrot, Angua, Wee Mad Arthur, Nobby, Haddock
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:05 am

I include Monstrous Regiment and both Moist books among the better ones, personally (Making Money is a classical middle book of a trilogy, I await the conclusion). Overall, of the first 10 books, when Pratchett is good he is more cute than deep. And that isn't bad, but doesn't go very far. I prefer the theme/character/joke balance of the later books.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Worst thing to be whatever is the third moist book:
Moist gets forced into yet another position that has something to do with finances. A villain who's a pale copy of Gilt shows up and is totally against any changes. Adora gets watered down and after 600 odd pages of what's basically a rerun of GP Moist finds the perfect new financial thing and he and Adora are still not married.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:58 pm

Well, we know what the third government position is supposed to be. And in contrast to the previous two it isn't about providing the people something they *like*. (At least, not directly.) So Moist can't use his old techniques. There has to be a twist. Also, his criminal past is known. How can a thief tell them not to steal from the city? But in the end Moist will find a way to sell paying taxes to the Morporkians. And it should involve the completion of his growth into a servant of the public. The classical development of a trilogy is that the second part repeats the main points of the first. This shows a pattern was established. The third is where the bits that are still not working in the pattern are fixed.

(Why should Moist and Adora marry? Carrot and Angua are still not married after some 11 years.)
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:13 pm

WEll, as said, 'worst case'.
(Though the absolute worst case, storywise, would be if Moist miraculously reforms not only AM's taxsystem but also the one of Pseudopolis because those dumb, dumb buggers would be so lost and helpless without the aid from the great and outstandingly awesome AM. Seriously, if that happens Discworld'll be dead to me./rant )
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:21 pm

also Cosmo wasn't supposed to be a copy of Gilt and, well, wasn't. The Lavishes weren't in competition with moist they were flat out trying to take the job (and the money) from him. I partly agree with Cabbage, the two books may have hit some of the same beats, but they weren't the same book. and i don't expect Raising Taxes to be the "same".

But i wanna see the book anyway, one because of its set up in MM and two because i wanna see the Undertaking get completed.

and on what i was talking about before

Nah UA i will do on its own. wanna go through it again anyway :P

i do Hogfather and reaperman in a death book run and maskerade in a witches run.

small gods and pyramids are spacers :D
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Resteasy » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:47 pm

G'day, short time reader, first time poster.

Forgive me if my first post is a little disjointed, it's late and I've just finished work (and I've had a couple of relaxing bevvies).

I enjoyed Snuff. It wasn't the best Discworld book and I don't think it's the worst. Having said that, I don't think there is a worst book. I like all the Discworld books so far written, certainly some more than others and some less so than others, but all books I've ejoyed even for simple reasons.

People have gone on about the changes in characters or the 'out of character behaviour of ....' whatever character.

Lets start with Vetinari. People say it's out of character for Vetinari to behave the way he did with regards to the crossword. Why? We've never really encountered any person who's actually managed to vex the Patrician so how are we to know how he acts? And it's not like he behaves in any outragous manner. At first he "uncharacteristically" laughs out loud, Mr Pratchett even acknowledges it's uncharateristic. Also, "... was close to ranting" But someone would have needed to know him very well to realize this (perhaps only Drumknott). What was he doing?? He was drumming his fingers on the table.

Continuing with Vetinari, he is a changed person from when he appeared in Guards Guards. Can you think of a time when Vetinari would have ever reacted to any news by putting his hand over his eyes? Not the usual stoic behaviour of the Patrician but that's the type of behaviour he displayed in Guards Guards. He even paces up and down when worried and snaps at Lupine Wonse. In fact, in Guards Guards you could say that Vetinari is more animated in behaviour than in any other book he's appeared in.

Sybil. Now Sybil barely manages to make an appearance in many of the earlier books yet people seem to know how she would behave (I'm refering to her use of the word bitch). She features a bit in Guards Guard, very little in Men At Arms, Feet of Clay or Jingo. We've seen her scared, worried, upset but have we really seen her cross / angry. I don't think it is out of character for her to use the word bitch. As another poster said, Vimes has rubbed off on her and as she herself stated, she hates the fact that all the other aristocracy thinks she is like them. As other posters have stated also, she's been more fleshed out (sorry if I'm repeating things already posted).

Vimes. Of course Vimes has changed. He's older now, has a son, he's experienced. As raptornx01 put is so excellently, he has learned.

People have also said that the book is too wordy and didn't like the way that everything had to be explained. Have a look at Feet of Clay, the whole confrontation with Vimes and Dragon King of Arms. That whole section is Vimes verbally explaining everything.

Admittedly, I think the whole Summoning Dark thing could have been handled a little better but I don't have a huge problem with it. I think Vimes was willing to listen to it, not necessarily believe it outright, but listen to it to use what it gave him to gain further information. I mean, in Guards Guards we had Gaspode the talking dog telling Angua what happened. I think Vimes is not entirely comfortable having the Summoning Dark with him but he'll use what he has at his disposal at this time. He doesn't like magic being used to solve crimes but the Summoning Dark isn't magic

I loved Willikins in this. I love how he is protective of Young Sam (and of Vimes and Sybil of course). I like how he subtly tells Vimes off for not spending enough time with Young Sam. I did like his confrontation with Stratford, "And you Mister Stratford, set out to kill Commander Vimes's little lad, or worse. And do you know what is even worser? I reckon that if you'd done so, the commander would have arrested you and dragged you to the nearest police station. But inside he'd be cutting himself up because the poor bugger is scared that he could be as bas as you." Brilliant.

There was lots of great scenes in this book like Vimes earning the trust of Tears of the Mushroom by giving her a photo of his son (but I'll spare you going on and on about them all). Yes, this isn't one of Mr Pratchetts best books but I still think it is a good book and really enjoyed it.

And in my opinion, I'd have to say Night Watch is one of the greatest, if not the greatest books I've ever read.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:25 pm

Welcome to the site, Resteasy! :)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Welcome to the site there.
I think when talking about changes in a character you have to look at things from various sides. Of course a every writer has his characters grow, change under what they go through. And a good writer, and usually there is no doubt about Pratchett being one, builds a character up from one point. Like doing embroidery. A good writer can add shiny new thread and sequins to the fabric, but the fabric remains.

What I have seen from many who critique Snuff, UA, ISWM and MM for these things here we have a case where the fabric itself seems to have changed.

As for the wordyness: Yes, there is quite a bit of talk in that scene in FoC, but it's nothing compared to the wordyness of UA or Snuff (made it half way through that one, before anyone complains).

Pratchett had been a master of words, but in the recent books words seem to drown the plot. And these talks are repeative, often giving an information that was given only a few pages before.

That is what bugs people I'd say
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Ziriath » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:47 pm

That drumming on the table is a quite interesting thing about Vetinari. He did it in some previous books too. When he does it, for some reason I always think of the 'It's a gas mask' scene in Doctor Who.
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