Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby alicenanjing » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 pm

raisindot wrote: Kids steps out of his car, unsheaths the Glock from his hip holster, aims it at Stratford, and tells him to drop his weapon. Stratford thinks for a moment, and then aims his gun at Kins. Kins fires first, killing Stratford. Kins gets into his car and drives away.

Sheriff Vines hears about this event over the radio. He knows that Kins is a crack shot and is rumored to have a violent criminal past, although he has never been arrested. He also saw Kins' Camaro following the van when it left the Ft. Lauderdale police station and, in the past, has often heard Kins talking about the merits of vigilante justice. He knows that Kins carries a Glock .44 caliber gun with him at all times, and also has heard from forensics that Stratford was killed by a .44 bullet, while the other policemen were killed with bullets from their own service revolvers.

In this situation, do you believe that Vins would simply let this matter rest and choose not to ask Kins where he was at the time of Stratford's death?


Point of order: Willikins didn't "fire first". He did, indeed, tell Stratford that he intended to kill him, but he also told him that, being a fair man, he would give Stratford a chance to kill him first. He therefore stood there and let Stratford rush him with the knife, and only took the comb out of his pocket when the killer was nearly upon him, evaded the knife stroke and killed his attacker. In the book, the episode is told from the point of view of the horse. That's why it doesn't jive with your "Roundworld scenario". If you had said "lets Stratford fire, throws himself to the side, dodging the bullet, and pierces Stratford's black heart with a shot fired just as his shoulder touched the ground", I would have agreed with you.
Also, Vimes did not know where Willikins had gone because it was the butler's day off - Willikins makes a point of telling this to Stratford, stressing the whole day off thing ("Very important, your day off in lieu ") - I'm quoting from memory here, if I didn't get it exactly right I hope I'll be forgiven.
Incidentally, the whole Willikins/Stratford fight rather reminded me of the encounter in THUD, between grag Bashfulsson (was it?) and the other grag, the deep-downer, whatsisname, who attacks him with an axe and gets knocked out with some sort of dwarf Aikido.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:25 pm

alicenanjing wrote:
raisindot wrote: Kids steps out of his car, unsheaths the Glock from his hip holster, aims it at Stratford, and tells him to drop his weapon. Stratford thinks for a moment, and then aims his gun at Kins. Kins fires first, killing Stratford. Kins gets into his car and drives away.

Sheriff Vines hears about this event over the radio. He knows that Kins is a crack shot and is rumored to have a violent criminal past, although he has never been arrested. He also saw Kins' Camaro following the van when it left the Ft. Lauderdale police station and, in the past, has often heard Kins talking about the merits of vigilante justice. He knows that Kins carries a Glock .44 caliber gun with him at all times, and also has heard from forensics that Stratford was killed by a .44 bullet, while the other policemen were killed with bullets from their own service revolvers.

In this situation, do you believe that Vins would simply let this matter rest and choose not to ask Kins where he was at the time of Stratford's death?


Point of order: Willikins didn't "fire first". He did, indeed, tell Stratford that he intended to kill him, but he also told him that, being a fair man, he would give Stratford a chance to kill him first. He therefore stood there and let Stratford rush him with the knife, and only took the comb out of his pocket when the killer was nearly upon him, evaded the knife stroke and killed his attacker. In the book, the episode is told from the point of view of the horse. That's why it doesn't jive with your "Roundworld scenario". If you had said "lets Stratford fire, throws himself to the side, dodging the bullet, and pierces Stratford's black heart with a shot fired just as his shoulder touched the ground", I would have agreed with you.
Also, Vimes did not know where Willikins had gone because it was the butler's day off - Willikins makes a point of telling this to Stratford, stressing the whole day off thing ("Very important, your day off in lieu ") - I'm quoting from memory here, if I didn't get it exactly right I hope I'll be forgiven.
Incidentally, the whole Willikins/Stratford fight rather reminded me of the encounter in THUD, between grag Bashfulsson (was it?) and the other grag, the deep-downer, whatsisname, who attacks him with an axe and gets knocked out with some sort of dwarf Aikido.


I agree with alice here and Yeah, seeing the camaro following the van is where i would cry foul with this also. Not to mention the idea of proof, Stan would have known the bullet could not be traced to Kin's gun, stan knew no matter how hard he looked he would have no evidence, and would just be wasting the taxpayers money by looking.

and you would also have to acknowledge in your scenario that this would be the second time Joe escaped. and the first time Joe escaped he went right to Stan Jr's school to wait for him to come out, he didn't go after Stan, not Kin, not even Mrs. Vines, the son. He was the dark dwarf coming through the cellar wall when he stepped out of that van and met kin. And kin killing Joe not only saved his life at that moment, but possibly saved the life of a child who had been threatened once already. and all in all don't you think it was better he was dealt with now, instead of when stan wasn't expecting it?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby swreader » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:52 am

raisindot wrote: SPOILER ALERT

The Vimes of Snuff, who thinks about the morality of his actions and fights against his own inner beast, was born on the desert of Klatch near the end of Jingo. Before this book, Vimes really was mainly a crime-solver who only accidentally discovered that the smaller crimes were symptoms of bigger crimes. The 'certain fire' was the act of a Vimes who was dedicated to upending the social order of things through vigiliante-type actions. The Vimes of post-Jingo books would never have set such a fire.

After Jingo, the importance of the Law (and in his own role in enforcing it without going beyond it) became a cornerstone of his thinking. Vimes' actions in TFE, some of which involved killing of people, was done completely in self-defense (the bandits), or, in the case of Wolfgang, a vigilante act that had been preceded by legal actions that failed to cause Wolfgang to surrender. Remember, too, that Wolfgang was attacking Vimes when Vimes killed him; an act of self-defense, but even Vimes realizes that he was on very moral shaky ground.


I don't know where you get the idea that Vimes only develops his belief in the Law after Jingo (or where in Jingo, for that matter, you think that happens). In fact, what you're suggesting in this post bears very little resemblance to the Vimes developed in Pratchett's books. Remember that the Vimes of G!G! is a drunk at least partially because (at least since Vetinari took over) he has nothing really to do except go out and shout "All's Well" when it clearly isn't. But Vetinari hasn't (until the end of the book) realized what Vimes is capable of.He recognizes Sam's committment to the Law in his speech about the great sea of evil. Vetinari only then begins to see what Vimes and the Watch can be in contrast to what they have been in the past. In MaA, Vetinari is playing games with Vimes, but Vimes believes that his job as a Watchman is to investigate crimes, to uphold the law. Vetinari threatens him with the loss of his badge even before the wedding. But Vetinari has not apparently recognized how dangerous the gun is, and that the possessor of the gun must be caught. But in his fight with Dr. Cruces, Vimes restrains himself--rejects the gun's blandishments, and is stopped from killing Cruces, apparently, by Carrot (who tells him to put the gun down). And it is Carrot (not Vimes) who kills the murderer, Dr. Cruces.

While Vimes may have caused the fire in FofC, he does it to stop the attempts to disable Vetinari which are being organized by the Vampire (Dragon King of Arms), who has been responsible for the deaths of the two people on Vimes's home street--who are killed by the servant who brings home the candles. He may be slow to find the means of poisioning, but he forces Vetinari's hand and keeps Dorfl as a Watchman. He upholds the law.

What has become obvious as Pratchett developed Vimes as a complex character with a committment to law, but also with a dark side which he guards carefully. By Snuff, Vimes has a very strong sense of JUSTICE and if the law hasn't caught up with it, he will provide justice anyhow. He upholds the law as the best protection for the ordinary man (as distinct from the peerage and/or the wealthy). It doesn't always work, but he sees that everyone has a responsibility to uphold the concept of justice--even if they are tenants, or "ordinary people." They have weapons--although they are not the weapons of the gentry. But you're just as dead if killed by a blow from a crowbar as you are from a "morning star". And the responsibility for justice belongs to everyone, not just the police.

Willikins is an odd throwback to the best elements of the feudal system. Although he, like Vimes, has a street background and skills, he has been for many years a part of the Ramkin family, rising from scullery boy to butler of the Ankh-Morpork establishment. He feels a great deal of responsibility to protect both Sam and Young Sam. It is significant that Sam has no idea that Wilikins is following the Quirm police transport taking Stratford to Ank-Morpork. And had they been able to deliver Stratford to Ankh-Morpork, there is no reason to think that Wilikins would have acted. But, Willikins gives the murderer "fair warning" and in spite of the odds, is able to execute him. One could say that he is still acting under the quasi legal status Sam gave him to take care of Sybil and young Sam while keeping Flutter locked up. This is one case where Sam will not ask Willikins what he did, although he keeps him on a tight rein in regard to the cross-bow.

I fail to see any relevance between what Pratchett is doing in this section of Snuff and your "parody" of a very small part of the action which you've set in Florida (cum the Wild West).
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:14 am

Slight nit-pick, swreader: in Guards! Guards! Vetinari thinks it is a good measure of his own cleverness that Vimes doesn't notice where the lock to the 'special dungeon' door is. To me this suggests that he actually already formed a view of Vimes as an intelligent and perceptive man (and that if even Vimes didn't see through Vetinari's trick it must have been very well done indeed). I think Vetinari had been waiting for a while for *Vimes* to assert himself and show what he can do.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:12 am

In FoC the fire was, yes partly that, but also because Dragon had been manipulating people for centuries. Treating them like cattle. This was an injustice he couldn't let pass, plus it served as a punishment of sorts because dragon was so vital to the city's heritage that he knew Vetinari would probably just give him a slap on the wrist.

and MaA Vetinari DID know how dangerous the gonne was, which is why he ordered it destroyed. What he didn't recognize was how powerful the gonne's influence could be. He even mused on why HE hadn't destroyed it himself, well Leonard did anyway.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:05 pm

Sorry, Swreader, your arguments just don't hold up.

In Guards! Guards!, Vimes 'redemption' was largely the influence of Carrot and Sybil, who believed that he could be something more than an ineffectual drunk. There's no evidence whatsoever that Vimes was thinking of himself in terms of "upholding the law" or "enforcing justice," whether Vetinari believed he could be a better man or not. Vimes was simply dealing with a threat to the city.

At the beginning of Men at Arms, Vimes is about to retire. In fact, he has very little to do in the book in terms of "solving the crime;' Carrot does most of the work. Only when Vimes sees the danger the gonne poses to public order and safety does he take an active role in trying to solve the crime. But, again, this is simply whodunnit stuff--find the killer, stop the gonne. Nothing to do with an any true feeling about the Law Vimes has developed.

In Feet of Clay, Vimes' burning of Dragon's books is nothing more than a vigilante act of retribution. The act would do nothing to keep Dragon from continuing his manipulations, since Dragon already has the histories of the old families in his head and, as Vetinari himself says, these histories could be reconstructed by the families themselves if need be. The act doesn't represent any kind of justice at all, since it's outside the bounds of AM laws. Vimes is not thinking in terms of the Law or as somehow who upholds the Law; he is someone who is feeding a private vendetta because he knows justice won't truly be served.

Certainly VImes has evolved in these books. The Vimes of Men at Arms is a better, smarter copper than the Vimes of Guards! Guards. The Vimes of LOC demonstrates, for the first time, those 'street-smart' skills and sympathy for the oppressed that will become the core elements of the Vimes in later books, as well as his growing tolerance for non-human races, including his realization (with Carrot's help) that golems are sentient beings.

But, to this point, Vimes never truly seriously thinks about what The Law means and his own relationship to it. Until Jingo, he is essentially a crime-fighter and threat-eraser. The Law he is serving is Vetinari's law, and the laws of Ankh Morpork. But the events of Jingo demonstrate to Vimes that even when nations operate within their own laws, even the laws of warfare, they are breaking a higher law--the Law that says that it is a crime for little crimes to cause bigger crimes. When he "arrests" both armies, he is essentially enforcing a higher law--the law of humanity itself. And, even then, he comes very close to breaking this law when he realizes that sometimes it's impossible to fully enforce. It is here that Vimes truly begins to think in abstract terms. He is much more than Vetinari's terrier; he is becoming the world's peacemaker. He also realizes that if he's going to be the world's chief law enforcer, he can no longer commit acts like burning down businesses, or even letting the manacled Vetinari go. The Law must apply to everyone.

From this point on, Vimes' perception of what the Law really is--and his role in enforcing it--will become central themes in the Guards books.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:11 am

In Men at Arms there are several things keeping Vimes on task. One was the fact that Hammerhock's death was impacting dwarf-troll relations, another was that he was annoyed by the classism of the Assassins and the city nobles, yet another was that the Gonne-wielder killed the beggar girl (Queen Molly's attendant). It's not just that the Gonne was dangerous, the person wielding it was causing chaos and killing underdogs. These trends were there before FOC.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby feanor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:34 pm

Hi All...

Just reporting in to say that I've finished Snuff, and enjoyed it.

I have to say I had Goosies, wondering when Stratford would strike after escaping, and was expecting a good scrap with Vimes to top it all off. But was pleased that Willikins had the Honour. There was a nice bit of Tension too with Vimes beating the Locals round to his POV, Young Sams Poo obsession was a little too much though, LOL. I'm gonna make a start on UA Tomorrow again, wish me Luck !

It has spurred me to to read Guards Guard again after Catching up. I wanna see Vimes as a Drunk again to see how far he's come...
I'm glad that all my problems have now Resolved down to where my next Banana is coming from...
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:37 pm

feanor wrote:Hi All...

Just reporting in to say that I've finished Snuff, and enjoyed it.

I have to say I had Goosies, wondering when Stratford would strike after escaping, and was expecting a good scrap with Vimes to top it all off. But was pleased that Willikins had the Honour. There was a nice bit of Tension too with Vimes beating the Locals round to his POV, Young Sams Poo obsession was a little too much though, LOL. I'm gonna make a start on UA Tomorrow again, wish me Luck !

It has spurred me to to read Guards Guard again after Catching up. I wanna see Vimes as a Drunk again to see how far he's come...


i'm gonna give it a little time then i wanna do a full watch run again. or you could say a full Ank run. GG, MatA, FoC, Jingo, T5thE, NW, Thud, and Snuff, and occasionally i'll add in the truth, GP, monstrous regiment, and MM in their appropriate spots. may do it this time, depending on my mood.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:49 pm

raptornx01 wrote:i'm gonna give it a little time then i wanna do a full watch run again. or you could say a full Ank run. GG, MatA, FoC, Jingo, T5thE, NW, Thud, and Snuff, and occasionally i'll add in the truth, GP, monstrous regiment, and MM in their appropriate spots. may do it this time, depending on my mood.


What, no UA? (Wouldn't blame you if you didn't.) :D
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:04 pm

And Fred Colon is in Reaper Man. ;)
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby LilMaibe » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:10 pm

And Colon and Nobby were in Soul Music... (seriously, is there ANY Post-G!G! book in AM where none of the watch appears?)
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Bouncy Castle » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:36 pm

Were they in The Truth? Can't remember.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Pearwood » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:42 pm

Ok, just finished Snuff yesterday. My thoughts:

The Good (with some caveats):
- I liked the snooker metaphor although it didn't really turn out to be that apt as Vimes never even saw the black, let alone potted it.
- Feeny wasn't a bad character. Neither was Makepeace though he was criminally underused.
- The River Boat chase was OK. Stratford's trick was a nice idea though didn't really make a lot of sense. Either he fell asleep on guard duty (which I don't buy) or he knew Vimes would be coming (how could he?) and set up an elaborate trap for him.
- I liked the ungue pot concept though nothing much was done with it. I thought there'd be a revelation that snuff boxes were actually ungue pots (what with the title), but no. When did everyone start snorting snuff every 2 seconds anyway?
- It made me appreciate Unseen Academicals by comparison.

The Bad
- It wasn't funny in the slightest. I see some here are claiming that this is Pratchett maturing into a serious writer, but I disagree. Pratchett has done serious before with Night Watch (a book I admittedly don't like, but don't think badly written). There's tons of jokes in Snuff however, it's just that none are funny.
- The Summoning Dark does all the work for Vimes.
- Vimes never is in any danger or makes any mistakes.
- When did Vimes become such an obnoxious bore? He rabbits on about The Law and every fifth word in his long speeches was "Copper". What does he mean by the Law anyway? The self-appointed magistrates can't decide what is law apparently but he and/or Vetinari can?
- Despite the horribleness of the goblins' situation I was never really moved by their plight. I felt more sorry for Nutt in UA.
- Young Sam is neither endearing nor interesting.
- Several characters seemed off. Sybil, Cheery and Nobby are good examples, but the worst culprit is Willikns. The charm of this character is that he appeals to be a Jeeves like valet but there is a hint of something dangerous behind this pleasant facade. Here that hint is spelt out in detail as Willikins goes on about how hard he is. Ugh.
- Terry's writing has always been brilliantly structured. He puts words in exactly the right place to convey meaning. Not so here. In fact, the bacon, LETTUCE and tomato joke seeemed like such a bad imitation of this skill that I wondered if maybe this was ghost written.
- Stratford wasn't a threatening villain, nor could I care that much about him as he was only a puppet. Gravid never appeared nor did we learn his true motives (since he was rich anyway would he have gone to this trouble for simple profit).
- The Fred Colon subplot was both over-coincidental and too easily sorted.
- Did we really need 3 different characters pissing themselves?

Without doubt my least favourite Discworld book. Ah well, I still have I Shall Wear Midnight to read so hopefully that's better.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:22 pm

Tonyblack wrote:And Fred Colon is in Reaper Man. ;)


And Nobby is in Hogfather and Maskerade.
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