Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[TheTurtleMoves]

I found that scene in the book amusing rather than reprihensible I must admit. I had never looked at it from that point of view before. I've liked seeing Vimes grow into a dedicated man to his job and family and so on but he'll always have a bit of tarnish on him which is why I like him. I suppose the scene in that book illustrates that nicely. He's got good intentions, he just arrives via a different route to everyone else.

I liked Thud very much. I liked its general message of hating/fighting someone else because they are different is just daft. I don't think the girls night out bit took anything away from it and I enjoyed reading a new side to some off duty coppers. I did find Angua to be more acerbic but I mostly put that down to the fact that she's been in the AMCW for quite a while now and seeing the ar*e end of humanity for any stretch of time is bound to turn you a little cynical and bitter.

[Teppic]

"personal isn't the same as important"

Isn't it weird that a man who uttered these words in an earlier book when he believed his girlfirend to be murdered would be willing to do that for Vimes though? You have to wonder about Carrot's philosphy at times.

And of course, this episode also shows the difference between Vimes and Vetinari. The Patrician is loyal to "the City" as an idea and that idea must keep running smoothly, like clockwork at all times - that's often mentioned as Vetinari's way. Vimes is loyal - despite his cynicism and dislike of most - to the people within the city, particularly the most vulnerable. And whilst in the past that has included the families in the slums and the widows of former Watchmen, it now also includes Young Sam. 'Personal', it seems, is increasingly the same as 'important' for Vimes.

But whilst he changes as a father, this also confirms everything we know about Vimes in many ways, particularly his bloody mindedness and his fear of what will happen if his self-discipline goes awry. The same self-discipline which forces him to keep a bottle of whisky in his desk drawer to prove he doesn't need it in earlier books, his 'internal policeman', manifests itself again and again in Thud! He is more scared of himelf than he is of anyone else, and the self-imposed self-discipline which he uses to counter this fear causes some collatoral damage - such as the streets being closed.

But, thankfully, it's the same fear and same self-discipline which stops him becoming consumed by the dark foces at the end of the book. I believe it's because of his new focus, his son, that he's able to overcome these dark forces which would otherwise have consumed him. Contrast the end of Thud with his handling of the gonne in Men at Arms, when he was only saved from himself by Carrot. The 'internal policeman' has become stronger since his son was born I think; and that has good and bad results both for himself and the city which he serves.

[Pearwood]

So, in summary: Vimes is okay with using the Watch to help him get home, but diverting traffic for this purpose goes beyond his sense of what's right and wrong. Never mind that he is diverting coppers from solving crimes, being on patrol and is using both public and private resource for his own benefit. The only part he mildly objects to is what he sees as Carrot 'going too far.' But this almost seems more of astonishment on the part of Vimes that Carrot would have the audacity to do such a thing, rather than a moral objection.

Ah, that makes sense. I definitely had a memory of Vimes abusing his power, but couldn't remember exactly what he did. My main problem with Vimes' action isn't that they're dishonest (I've never considered him 100% honest), it's that he's always acted like an everyman and here he was using his high standing in the city to convenience himself and thereby disconvenience the common folk of Ankh Morpork. By acting like he's entitled to more than others he's no better than the Patrician.

[raisindot]

Ah, that makes sense. I definitely had a memory of Vimes abusing his power, but couldn't remember exactly what he did. My main problem with Vimes' action isn't that they're dishonest (I've never considered him 100% honest), it's that he's always acted like an everyman and here he was using his high standing in the city to convenience himself and thereby disconvenience the common folk of Ankh Morpork. By acting like he's entitled to more than others he's no better than the Patrician.

I think you've hit it on the nail here. In past books, Vimes used his high standing and authority to co-opt public and private resources for the purposes of solving (or preventing) a crime or upholding the Law. What he does in Thud is the first time he's used this authority solely for his own benefit. It's not his finest moment, but it's one Pterry has purposely put in to add a new layer of complexity and moral ambiguity to Vimes' character.

[poohcarrot]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

The quote is in the first part of Men At Arms.

[raisindot]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

The quote is in the first part of Men At Arms.

Holy poo! It took nearly a year to answer that question?

Thus answered, I retract my original assertion above.

[One Man Bucket]

Whether this is discussion worthy I know not but it seemed interesting. In the things Tak wrote we learn that there are 3 sentient races native to the Disc* and I was wondering if this is actually the case or simply dwarf belief. The undead can pretty much be considered humans with a condition. Gnomes, Picties and elves are immigrants from parasitic dimensions and things like Dryads are the result of magical mutation caused by the Mage Wars. It seems to me that the things Tak wrote can thus be considered true in at least that respect.

* humans, dwarves and trolls

[Tonyblack]

I think it's a bit like our three main religions who all believe in the same god and ignore everyone else.

[One Man Bucket]

Well you have to admit the existence of the other races can be explained away whereas it's a lot harder for the various religions to explain away those things they disagree with

[raisindot]

Whether this is discussion worthy I know not but it seemed interesting. In the things Tak wrote we learn that there are 3 sentient races native to the Disc* and I was wondering if this is actually the case or simply dwarf belief. The undead can pretty much be considered humans with a condition. Gnomes, Picties and elves are immigrants from parasitic dimensions and things like Dryads are the result of magical mutation caused by the Mage Wars. It seems to me that the things Tak wrote can thus be considered true in at least that respect.

It reflects Dwarfish belief only, and their own assessment of which beings are truly 'sentient.' Not only because there are other sentient races (goblins, banshees, gargoyles, gnolls, gnomes (the ones that aren't picties), but because there are actually real gods on the DW. Unless Tak created those other gods, or those other gods deserve no credit for creating sentient beings, the dwarves' creation mythology is incompatible with DW reality.

[cabbagehead]

I'm pretty sure none of the Discworld gods created sentient beings. At least those gods humans believe in were to a large extent created by humans and their belief in those gods. I'm not sure how the gods that trolls worship (a few were mentioned in Moving Pictures) work.

Should Tak be on Dunmanifestin? Was he originally a small god that acquired his personality through dwarf beliefs? Or is the fact that the dwarfs see him as an absentee creator mean he couldn't have formed the way human-worshipped gods form?

[Oberon]

Should Tak be on Dunmanifestin? Was he originally a small god that acquired his personality through dwarf beliefs? Or is the fact that the dwarfs see him as an absentee creator mean he couldn't have formed the way human-worshipped gods form?

As far as I understand it the dwarves have no religion. They believe that Tak created the world but they don't worship him.

[cabbagehead]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

[Tonyblack]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

Just about everyone believes in Luck and Fate even if they don't admit to it. It's the reason they are such powerful deities. So yes, that's probably why they are both on Dunmanifestin.

I'm reading Folklore of Discworld at the moment and this is something that's covered in there. I think there's a whole thing about Tak, but haven't got that far.

[Oberon]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

Good point. This from Discworld Wiki:

"Tak wrote the world, according to the dwarfs, but unlike most gods he does not require that the dwarfs think of him, merely that they do think. This makes him exceptional amongst Discworld gods who, without belief, would fade away to nothing more than small gods, eternally blown by the winds of mischance and always lamenting their loss of status and godhood".