Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Snuff*

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Postby windscion » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:40 pm

MoonJewel wrote:... he's always had a relationship with Lady Margalotta, hasn't he? An intellectual understanding, or am I misremembering?

Well, you're interpreting. I mean, no one really knows. Common street gossip says she's his main squeeze, but there's really no way to verify it. IMNSHO, HV isn't crawling into bed with a vampire, but maybe when he was younger?
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Postby stripy_tie » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:21 pm

windscion wrote:
MoonJewel wrote:... he's always had a relationship with Lady Margalotta, hasn't he? An intellectual understanding, or am I misremembering?

Well, you're interpreting. I mean, no one really knows. Common street gossip says she's his main squeeze, but there's really no way to verify it. IMNSHO, HV isn't crawling into bed with a vampire, but maybe when he was younger?


Obviously only pterry really knows and i still get the feeling that even he might not be entirely sure what it is.

However i've always got the impression that they're together, even if it's not in the physical sense any longer. They're both extremely independent, intellectually superior to most people and are very busy. At this point i think it's more of an understanding than anything else.
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Postby MoonJewel » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:13 pm

Sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant by "intellectual understanding". I guess I should have stated it as "relationship" meaning that it's not like he's dating her, but he has a type of relationship with her that has been presented as different from the type he has with others, but definitely no real information on what that is. He he likes conversing with her and appreciates her wit and intelligence, but I could never imagine him hopping into anyone's bed, vampire or not. Then again, she could always turn him into a vampire, giving him immortality, and making him able to rule Ankh Morpork forever! :shock:

(And no, I don't think that would ever happen)
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:28 pm

Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.
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Postby stripy_tie » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:50 pm

MoonJewel wrote:Sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant by "intellectual understanding". I guess I should have stated it as "relationship" meaning that it's not like he's dating her, but he has a type of relationship with her that has been presented as different from the type he has with others, but definitely no real information on what that is. He he likes conversing with her and appreciates her wit and intelligence, but I could never imagine him hopping into anyone's bed, vampire or not. Then again, she could always turn him into a vampire, giving him immortality, and making him able to rule Ankh Morpork forever! :shock:

(And no, I don't think that would ever happen)


Imagine the look on Vimes' face.
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Postby stripy_tie » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 pm

raisindot wrote:Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.


"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.
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Postby raisindot » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:24 am

stripy_tie wrote:"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.


I don't remember that quote. Where was it from? Anyone, he may have just been talking about one of them. :)

It just seems in general that at least some of the more prominent guild members live in the guilds. Dr. Whiteface seems to have permanent lodgings in the Fool's Guild, and you never hear of Lord Downey or Dr. Cruces occupying any other location than the Assassin's Guild. Doesn't mean they don't have wives or families. You just don't hear much about them. But throughout the books the number of not-so-young unmarried and uncoupled men in AM--Willekins, Drumknott, all of the wizards, all of the lodgers living at Wm. De Worde's boarding house, Cosmo Lavish, Vetinari, the clacks hackers, Stanley and Mr. Groat, Dr. Lawn, Hubert, A.E. Pessimel, Constable Visit, Nobby Nobbs--far outnumber the men who are identified as being married or in relationships.
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Postby stripy_tie » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:22 am

raisindot wrote:
stripy_tie wrote:"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.


I don't remember that quote. Where was it from? Anyone, he may have just been talking about one of them. :)

It just seems in general that at least some of the more prominent guild members live in the guilds. Dr. Whiteface seems to have permanent lodgings in the Fool's Guild, and you never hear of Lord Downey or Dr. Cruces occupying any other location than the Assassin's Guild. Doesn't mean they don't have wives or families. You just don't hear much about them. But throughout the books the number of not-so-young unmarried and uncoupled men in AM--Willekins, Drumknott, all of the wizards, all of the lodgers living at Wm. De Worde's boarding house, Cosmo Lavish, Vetinari, the clacks hackers, Stanley and Mr. Groat, Dr. Lawn, Hubert, A.E. Pessimel, Constable Visit, Nobby Nobbs--far outnumber the men who are identified as being married or in relationships.


Think it's either from Colour of Magic or Guards! Guards! i remember reading it that's how i thought to look for it online. It was in a passage describing how Vetinari set up the guild system and then waited for all of the guild leaders (and members) to get comfortable with their new lives. He then gathered them all together for a big feast or meeting and said this.

This pretty much states that at that time all the guild leaders had wives and children. I'm not saying that this hasn't changed to a certain extent as time has passed, as you say there's a trend towards single males in positions of power but i disagree about how extensive it is.

William De Worde has Sacharissa, Vimes has Sybil, Carrot has Angua, Lipwig has Dearheart (at least i think he does, i've only seen the film of going postal and i haven't read making money so don't spoil me please lol) and Mort had Ysabelle (still feel a tad sad about losing those two so early in the series).

Can we really count the wizards? since they're not actually allowed to get married
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Postby madam » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:38 pm

just becuase we dont read about someone dosent mean they dont exist, i mean we hadnt heard about SPOILER! gravid and regina rust before snuff. id say that many (obviously not all) of the guild leaders/power brokers has significant others, it just that they arnt really interesting enough to write about .

my 2 groats worth on the Vetinari/Margolotta thing, is that the relationship was romantic/physical in the past, but probobly isnt now (however much id like it to be) what with aforementioned distance/political/trust issues. id still say they had a friendship going on, albeit a weird one.

as for future relationships margo,grace or yet-to-be-written character wise, it looks unlikly, simply becuase he's a very complicated individual in a very complicated situation and finding a woman (im assuming he's hetro) thats clever, invunerable (for a given value of) from assasination attempts ,interesting , attractive ,trustworthy, and patient , , enough for him without being a political risk or liable to go completly crazy from the stress would be allmost impossible or run into horrific sue territory.

Margo has a the first four traits but is a complete disaster otherwise, and grace may be totally safe politics wise but could easily be killed ( i think this last reason is also why he dosent have any close friends).

in short, even if anything did happen between him and somone else we'd never ever hear about it beyond subtle hints if that.
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Re:

Postby Mary Skater » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:49 pm

madam wrote:as for future relationships ... it looks unlikly, simply becuase he's a very complicated individual in a very complicated situation and finding a woman (im assuming he's hetro) thats clever, invunerable (for a given value of) from assasination attempts ,interesting , attractive ,trustworthy, and patient ... would be allmost impossible ...


Leonard of Quirm could probably build one for him.

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Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

Postby Bouncy Castle » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:01 pm

I quite like the idea of Vetinari marrying this woman, and she rules him like Sybil rules Sam!
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Re:

Postby Ziriath » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:12 pm

raisindot wrote:Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.


That's exactly how I see it. I think he was always an asexual. It seemed to me he was enjoying that high on bloodloss in MAA and poisoning in FoC, but he doesn't seem to me like a masochist.
Margolotta wouldnt bite him without a purpose, but he can become a vampire because of reasons though.
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Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

Postby cabbagehead » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:10 am

The quote about Vetinari knowing about where family members of guild leaders spend their time is from Guards! Guards!. Also in Jingo there is mention of the wife of the head of the Thieves' Guild (71-Hour Achmed was offering to buy her off as part of his 'primitive Klatchian' act). Under Vetinari plenty of professions became guilds, I doubt bachelorhood was required of all those new guild heads.

Now that the Times' cartoonist has drawings of Morporkia, how long until the Anthropomorphic Personification of the city starts walking the streets? If she does, Vetinari might find himself married to her.
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Re:

Postby Nullus Anxietas » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:36 pm

LilMaibe wrote:Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?



It was.
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Re: Re:

Postby Tonyblack » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:20 pm

Nullus Anxietas wrote:
LilMaibe wrote:Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?



It was.

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