raisindot wrote:Did anyone find the 'gotcha' moment when Vimes claimed to prove that Dragon had poisoned the candles to be a little bit lame?
After all, Vimes had been accusing him of poisoning the candles all along, and Dragon had been providing a rather strong alibi to prove he had nothing do with it.
I also found it quite a bit stretching that Dragon wouldn't have immediately known that Vimes was in his study when he returned. Or that he didn't immediately turn into a swarm of bats when Dorfl grabbed him. (How the Watch would have been able to even keep him inside a cell is a challenge in itself).
swreader wrote:JIB, I think you missed the point Terry was making here--the Dragon has been taunting Vimes with his link to the poisoned candles since the beginning because he believes Vimes is too dumb to see what he has put out for all to see. And Dragon as much as admits that his glance at the candles plus his "sudden weakness" means he knows about the candles. He denies their effect and also, and perhaps more importantly says "But who
But isn't that the point of this scene? The book is, to some degrees a pastiche of detective novels, crime stories TV shows and the ilk.raisindot wrote:
From a procedural point of view, it's the equivalent of the last scene in a cop show when the suspect, who has effectively hidden his tracks to this time and looks like he can never be arrested, is about to be let go and then is tricked into admitting something about the murder that hasn't been released to the public and that only the murderer would have known.
A small point in the larger story, but since this is a literary discussion, it's fair game to bring up.
ChristianBecker wrote:As far as I understand raisindot, the problem is not the scene itself but that Vimes tells dragon about the poisoned candles and THEN says there's holy water in the room. Only THEN does Dragon look at the candles - which is kinda obvious when shortly before Vimes spoke about poisoned candles.
So the scene itself is OK, only Terry messed up the order a bit.
I still haven't finished rereading FoC, so I don't know if raisondot is right, but if it is indeed like he said, then he is.
L-Space wrote:+ [p. 258] "He landed on the king's back, flung one arm around its neck, and began to pound on its head with the hilt of his sword. It staggered and tried to reach up to pull him off."
In Robocop 2, our hero (Robo) jumped on the back of the 'Robocop 2' and tried to open its head.
+ [p. 260] "'They gave their own golem too many, I can see that."
The way the king golem is driven mad by the number of rules in its head reminded many people of a scene in Robocop 2, where Robocop is rendered useless by programming with several, partly conflicting rules. This slightly tenuous connection is reinforced by several further similarities between Dorfl and Robocop.
Never mind Robocop, however: one correspondent has posited that the entire candle factory sequence is a clever amalgam of the endings to both Terminator movies. I will let him explain this to you in his own words -- I couldn't bring myself to paraphrase or edit it down:
"The candle factory itself, with all the candle production lines is reminiscent of the robotics in the automated factory that Reese activates to confuse the Terminator. Throughout the candle factory scene, Carrot is Reese, Angua is Sarah Connor, the king switches between the original T-800 when fighting Carrot and the T-1000 from T2 when fighting Dorfl, who is the 'good' Terminator from T2.
Carrot is shot early on and has to be dragged around initially by Angua, much like the injured Reese has to be supported by Sarah. The following fight between Dorfl and the king is similar to the big T2 confrontation between the two Terminators, in which one of the combatants is able to 'repair' himself and thus has an advantage. When Dorfl is 'killed', his red eyes fade out just like a T-800s, but he is later able to come back to life. The T-800 achieves this by rerouting power through undamaged circuitry; Dorfl does it by getting the words from elsewhere (heart as opposed to head).
In T1, Reese finds a metal bar and tries to fight an opponent he can't possibly beat -- exactly as Carrot does. When Angua finds herself facing the injured king, it is similar to the scene in T1 after Reese's death, when the torso of the Terminator pulls itself along after the injured Sarah, grabbing at her legs (which the king also does to Angua). Then, Detritus' shot at the king, which has no effect, is like Sarah's last stand against the T-1000, when she runs out of ammo just at the crucial point. When it appears that the seemingly invincible king has survived everything and is about to finish the job and kill Carrot, the thought-to-be-dead Dorfl makes a last-gasp interjection which finally kills the king -- much like the resurrected Arnie appears just in time to kill the T-1000 in T2. Oh, and finally, the molten tallow that Cheery almost falls into is, of course, the molten metal at the end of T2."
cabbagehead wrote:A minor comment: Female vampires turn into a swarm of bats. Male vampires turn into a single bat - Dragon does that when he escapes from the candle factory (IIRC). I suppose by the time he realized Vimes had him figured out (and wasn't there merely to ask ignorant questions or anything like that) he was weakened enough not to be able to escape in that manner.
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