timeline

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timeline

Postby rockershovel » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 pm

I've been thinking about this following the posts about Snuff. I had a look at the timeline on L-space and it seems to me, to be a classic case of over-thinking a subject.

As far as I can see, it looks about like this;

Books run in approximately chronological order in more-or-less real time, covering a period of about twelve years from Guards Guards to Snuff.This means that Carrot ages from about 18 to 30 or so. Angua is a similar age, on the assumption that werewolves age similarly to humans ( implied but not confirmed ).

Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax are somewhere in their later sixties at the time of Snuff and about sixty when they first appear. Mustrum Ridcully is a little younger than Granny Weatherwax. Magrat is about the same age as Carrot, Verence being somewhat older. Vimes is about 52 at the time of Snuff, making him 40-ish in Guards Guards and late teens in Night Watch

This in turn, means that Fred Colon and Mustrum Ridcully are about the same age. Nobby Nobbs appears to be about 10 or 12 years old in Nightwatch, late twenties in Guards Guards and early 40s in Snuff This means that he would have served with Fred Colon in the A-M military when he was in his late teens or early 20s, since this is old history by the time of Guards Guards - which appears by elimination to be 12 or 12 years after Night Watch

Small Gods predates Guards Guards by about 100 years meaning that it immediately pre-dates the birth of Cohen

Colour of Magic , Light Fantastic and Equal Rites are outside this timeframe, as is Eric/Faust. Pyramids appears to be roughly contemporary but can't be accurately dated.

Ponder Stibbons ages from about 18 to early 20s, which isn't really consistent with his developing role, but never mind.

There are a range of inconsistencies which are just that and shouldn't be scrutinised too hard.

anyone?
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Re: timeline

Postby LilMaibe » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:19 pm

Can't agree. Carrot is if I remember correctly stated to be 16 in GG (correct me if I'm wrong).
Ponder is 24 in LC.
Ridcully is 71/72 in Soul Music, the Dean is 7 months older than him.

The time-line on L-Space may not be perfect, but it is pretty well done nonetheless, I'd say.
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Re: timeline

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:44 pm

Don't forget that Nanny, Granny, Magrat and everyone else who was in Lancre at the time of Wyrd Sisters is fifteen years younger than they should be.

Also don't forget that this is only a series of fictional stories - not real life . . . :P
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Re: timeline

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:34 am

Tonyblack wrote:Don't forget that Nanny, Granny, Magrat and everyone else who was in Lancre at the time of Wyrd Sisters is fifteen years younger than they should be.

Also don't forget that this is only a series of fictional stories - not real life . . . :P


Is it penfold's signature that says -fiction has to make sense compared to real life- ?
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Re: timeline

Postby Penfold » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:29 pm

Since its come up in conversation, here's my signature which is a quote from the author Tom Clancy. :D

On a personal note, I don't really care that much about going into too much depth regarding the time-line since the Discworld (and individual regions of the Disc) have been put through the spacial/temporal wringer so often that its pretty much impossible to decide which trouser leg of time it should belong to (and that's assuming the trousers don't belong to a millipede). :lol:
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
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Re: timeline

Postby rockershovel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:34 pm

I wouldn't be too dogmatic about the timeline, but there needs to be some degree of overall shape. There are a whole range of inconsistencies which I don't suppose were ever resolved in the mind of the author, and should be kicked into the long grass on that basis.

I'd rather see this approach though, than that Discworld founder under Niven's Syndrome.
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Re: timeline

Postby cabbagehead » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:36 am

I agree about the roughly 12 years from Guards! Guards! and Snuff, but disagree on some of the ages.

Carrot was almost 16 in Guards! Guards!, so should be about 28 in Snuff. (Does anyone have an idea when in the year Snuff takes place? Because we know Young Sam was born on May 25th. Is he just past 6 or almost 7?)

We are never told Angua's age, but I think she is a few years older than Carrot, because in FOC she thinks of other cities she had to leave before arriving at Ankh Morpork. She definitely had more worldly experience when she arrived at Ankh Morpork than he did.

Vimes' age is compared to Sally (who is 51) in Thud! I can't remember if they are the same age or if she is older than him. So in Snuff he is no older than 56, maybe a bit younger. According to wikipedia he was stated to have been 16 when he joined the Watch (the claimed 30 years of the time travel has to be a rounded number anyway, based on the Mort-Susan timeline and needing to leave time for Snapcase's Patricianship). 16 seems to be the age of majority on the Disc. It was the age Mort went to seek an apprenticeship, it was the age Susan was taken into Death's role in his absence (this didn't happen in his previous absence about a year previously) and the age Carrot joined the Watch.

Fred Colon is a few years older than Vimes, Nobby is a few years younger, Sybil is about the same age as him, as she too was 16 in Nightwatch. Vetinari was in his final year at the Assassins' Guild school in Nighwatch, so probably around 18, making him no older than 58 in Snuff.

The Dean was 72 in Soul Music and Ridcully a few months younger, so he should be about 82 at the time of Snuff (quite older than Fred Colon). Ponder was 24 in TLC, making him about 31 at the time of Snuff.

The timeline of the witches is impossible on so many grounds I despair. Sometimes Granny and Nanny seem to have grown up together, but according to Lords and Ladies at the time of Mustrum's visit to Lancre Granny was only starting as a witch while nanny was already married to Sobriety Ogg, her third official husband. (And in Thief of Time there's a point where she is married to her second husband and in her mid-thirties).
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Re: timeline

Postby rockershovel » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 am

I'd forgotten about Young Sam, his various appearances mean that Thud and Snuffare several years apart - probably 3 or 4?

I'd dismissed the the reference to the Dean's age and hence Ridcully's as ''one of those Discworld things''. Ridcully is a vigorous, active man eating huge meals and carrying out a demanding job, and so unless wizards age at a different rate, he cannot be over 80 at the time of Unseen Academicals - in which, after all, he plays football. Windle Poons seems to suggest that wizards age much as those outside the walls do, but it's implied that time within the faculty cannot be relied upon.

Colon must be older than Vimes or Nobby, but close enough that he served with Nobby as an infantryman at a time when Nobby seems to have been sufficiently experienced to have had some sort or rank in the Q branch ( allowing for Colon exaggerating somewhat, in the manner of old soldiers everywhere ). He also worked quite hard in Jingo ( on the pedals in the Boat )

On all that basis, the overall ages at the time of Snuff - Ridcully in his late 60s approaching 70, his brother Hughnon a few years younger, Colon about the same, Vetinari in his later fifties, Vimes three years or so younger and Nobby five or six years less than that - seems about right, given the various contradictions and inconsistencies.

Angua could well be older than Carrot, she certainly seems to have more of a back-story. Do werewolves age slower than humans? We don't know, but since wolves don't, rather the reverse, the inference has to be that they don't.

The witches' timeline varies greatly as the plot demands. On a general basis, I'd say that Nanny Ogg is about 70 at the time of Snuff, and Granny Weatherwax somewhat less - being close enough to have had a youthful relationship of sorts with Ridcully. It could well be that, growing up in a place like Lancre, they could be very close without actually being the same age. Likewise although the age of majority seems to be 16, I wouldn't be much surprised if Nanny was married at 13 or 14.

Ponder Stibbons being generally early 20s to just past 30 seems about right, given his character and various plot points he is required to cover.

Susan and Mort don't really fit, but their status as sometimes resident in Death's Domain - and Susan's apparent status as semi-human, although her parents were undoubtedly human - mean they don't have to. Reaper Man
is another book which doesn't fit, but doesn't really need to, as is Pyramids.

So, it's fairly easy to compile a general timeline which doesn't bear detailed scrutiny, but no more.
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Re: timeline

Postby Sjoerd3000 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:18 pm

I blame the History Monks :P
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Re: timeline

Postby LilMaibe » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:23 pm

You know, there are actually some very active people IRL who are over 80
And Ridcully is a wizard. 80 is basically 40 for him
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Re: timeline

Postby pip » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:25 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:I blame the History Monks :P

The History Monks thign pretty much allows the timeline skew all over the place. Terrys Covered himself with that :D

I also get the impression that wizards get old quick then stay that way for a long time and Ridcully is an individual bursting with energy so why not. Octegenarians run marathons and they don't have the benefit of a magical environment :D
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Re: timeline

Postby cabbagehead » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:33 am

Regarding Mustrum, it isn't just Soul Music. In Moving Pictures we are told he left UU at 27 and went to mange the family estate for some 40 years (may be rounded). So he was definitely at least in his late 60s if not yet 72 in Soul Music. While UA must have been a few years before Snuff (Angua was still a Sergeant) it appears Mustrum played football in his late 70s.

Granny and Nanny - it isn't just the Lords and Ladies, its also Nanny's timeline from Thief of Time. If she was married to her second husband in her mid-thirties then she was even older when she was married to Sobriety, at the time of Mustrum's visit. Mustrum was still a student, so maybe around 20. Even if Granny entered witchcraft late (why would that be?) and was a bit older than Mustrum she is at least 10 but probably significantly more years younger than Nanny. OTOH Granny is always described as old, but if she was in her 60s in Lords and Ladies then she was maybe in her 50s when Esk was born. I'm wondering if a big part of her 'Granny' status was Boffo or Headology, until she grew into it.
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