Hogfather Discussion **Spoilers**

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:52 pm

I quite like everything about Hogfather except for the actual 'how', so it's not one of my favourites. :?

This reading (I think it's my third - maybe fourth time so there's another clue to how much I don't rate it because I'm really not sure how much I've not read it) I finally got the full nuance of the tooth control exercise, but really the whole Tooth Fairy thing didn't work for me somehow. I enjoyed the kid's drawing aspect of it and the Bogeyman denouement did make up for the actual 'killing stroke' I suppose. I mean really - how had they killed him? Hogswatch was still going on full tilt anyway even without Death subbing so quite patently people were keeping up traditions despite all the goings on in mythland and the kids were showing up for their turn on the Hogfather's knee so quite how had he really been inhumed? :roll:

Did love the Canting Crew and the posh restaurant switcheroo in this and also the miffed angels when the Little Matchgirl was snatched from their clutches :wink: The wizards did a lot to mitigate as well - lurve the bathroom antics but really I can't see how you could put this anywhere near par with SG or even CJ or RM on the 'deeper meaning' scoping :?
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Postby LilMaibe » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:18 pm

It been a while since I read the book (and currently I have leanded it to my mom) but the bit with the broken hourglass (am at that point in the movie again atm) was in the book as well, wasn't it?

I understood it that DEATH, upon seeing the Hogfather's time running out for some reason 'temporarily' removed the Hogfather from the reality so he could NOT get ... inhumed.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:54 pm

Maybe but when they were cutting to the scenes in Death's Domain there was 'activity' around the hourglass regardless of whether it was broken or not. Granted Death and Albert were out there trying to keep everything going across time as well as space but everything kept going more or less without their being there the whole time - wizards were still getting on with stuff etc although there was more Oh Gods and glingleglingle thing interaction but they were still celebrating Hogswatch with the foodie aspects so did the HF ever really disappear?
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Postby LilMaibe » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:52 pm

Maybe said activity was because he was there without being there. Will check the quotes again once I got the book back
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:19 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Maybe but when they were cutting to the scenes in Death's Domain there was 'activity' around the hourglass regardless of whether it was broken or not. Granted Death and Albert were out there trying to keep everything going across time as well as space but everything kept going more or less without their being there the whole time - wizards were still getting on with stuff etc although there was more Oh Gods and glingleglingle thing interaction but they were still celebrating Hogswatch with the foodie aspects so did the HF ever really disappear?


Hogswatch might still be going on, but did children still believe in the Hogfather? Nobody believed in Om anymore but the Church of Om was still there :wink:
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:45 am

You have two weeks to read or reread The Light Fantastic for the discussion starting on Monday 5th December. :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:38 pm

Sjoerd3000 wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Maybe but when they were cutting to the scenes in Death's Domain there was 'activity' around the hourglass regardless of whether it was broken or not. Granted Death and Albert were out there trying to keep everything going across time as well as space but everything kept going more or less without their being there the whole time - wizards were still getting on with stuff etc although there was more Oh Gods and glingleglingle thing interaction but they were still celebrating Hogswatch with the foodie aspects so did the HF ever really disappear?


Hogswatch might still be going on, but did children still believe in the Hogfather? Nobody believed in Om anymore but the Church of Om was still there :wink:

But that's the point really isn't it? The Hogfather was a pre-historical legend that maybe a Small God latched onto to give it more narrativum and it had degenerated into a winter fire festival tradition with no real focus in Teatime's era so the Hogfather was 'dead' anyway? :lol:
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:50 pm

I understood it that the more important thing was that they believed in him because not doing so would be the first domino-stone tupiied over in a long line of stopping to believe in things like him, ultimately ending in the people of the disc, no matter the species becoming... remember what became of the humans in Science of Discworld 2 that lacked stories?
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Tonyblack wrote:You have two weeks to read or reread The Light Fantastic for the discussion starting on Monday 5th December. :D


Ooooh. Innee strikt? :wink:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:29 pm

LilMaibe wrote:I understood it that the more important thing was that they believed in him because not doing so would be the first domino-stone tupiied over in a long line of stopping to believe in things like him, ultimately ending in the people of the disc, no matter the species becoming... remember what became of the humans in Science of Discworld 2 that lacked stories?

Science 2 The Globe? And the story-telling apes - well yes, but that's RoundWorld with no magical field. The Disc gods technically don't need belief because they exist anyway and so does magic. The Cori Celesti mob for the most part are 'elementals' or nature gods that would have presence in any event, even if they did start as small gods (like Om or Nuggan perhaps) with the exception being deities like Fate and the Lady although they're more aspects of causality or maybe anthropomorphic personifications... :P

Hogswatch is simply a point in the calendar to mark the end/start of the bi-cyclic 800-day year and the Hogfather the focus of ancient rituals to mark it. From that PoV he'd ceased to have any significance for centuries except for having a traditional feastday and had belief by default in that sense, so the essence of a Hogfather existed still but not the actual entity?
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:38 pm

Though DEATH said if they wouldn't have managed to save the believe in the stories the sun wouldn't have risen, but a ball of fiery gas.
I understood it, especially after SoD2, that if the Auditors would have succeeded tipping over that first stone people would have lost their fantasy which is needed for them to actually be human(oid)

(Makes me wonder why the auditors in SoD3 went and tried to get rid of Roundworld the way they did, when all they would have needed would have been messing with the elves.)

Think about what would happen if the humans on the Disc would lose their fantasy in a magical field where stuff rus on narrativium and believe.
It starts with not believing in the Hogfather and taking the sun not as sun but as what it analytically/scientifically is.
next step would be not believing in gods, magical races (trolls, for example, as rocks can't move) leading to the non-believe in the gods and finally to not believing that a flat wolrd on the back of four gargantuan elephants on the back of a turtle swimming through space can actually exist...
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Postby SpyViolette » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:14 am

I re-watched Hogfather on Netflix last night - first time since finishing the book - and I was pleasantly surprised to find they didn't change anything really or leave too much out. I truly was an excellent book that deserved a decent film adaptation.

My little brother, who is 4-years-old, asked if he could watch it and I tried to explain that it isn't for children. He also saw me reading the book a few weeks ago and asked me why Santa had tusks, so I said that it was kinda like Santa from a different, fictional world, except he's called the Hogfather and he has pigs pull his sleigh instead of reindeer.

This all might be off-topic, I'm not sure.
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:18 am

Oh shoo, what did the book say about stories for children? :wink:
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Postby meerkat » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:35 am

Fourn is about right for the Hogfather. Full of horror and fun and will certainly stop him from being scared of Death and anyway, children like horror stories. GOOSEBUMP books have sold like hot cakes.

Read him it. He'll love it!
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Re: Hogfather Discussion **Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:27 am

You have one week to read or reread The Light Fantastic for the discussion starting on Monday 5th December. :D
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