Hogfather Discussion **Spoilers**

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Postby MoonJewel » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:29 pm

So, I was so excited about the movie that I bought the special edition UK version (with the teeth!) even though I live in the US and the only thing I could watch it on was my computer (stupid DVD regions :evil: ). I really enjoyed the movie version and think they handled it really well. Unfortunately, after watching the Making Of feature and hearing Teatime say he based his reading on one of Johnny Depp's roles, I could never watch it in the same way.

As for the book, it was one of the first I read. I always thought it made so much sense for Death to be the Hogfather, since so much of the tradition was tied to death. Hogswatch (and every winter solstice holiday) was always about the fear of death, and ensuring life for another year. I think it actually ties in well to Pyramids, where the belief that the pharoah makes the sun rise doesn't ensure that a ball of fire keeps going around the disc, but it does make sure that the "sun rises".

I've always found Pratchett's explorations of how belief influences us and the world around us, and how we use belief to shape the outside world, to be one of his greatest strengths as a writer, and one of the best things about the Disc.

I especially like the tie between the old and new traditions and how easy it is for us to forget or ignore the past. We never really understand how important these traditions were for our ancestors and how they shaped the way we currently see the world. It made me appreciate how nice it is to live in a world where we don't worry that the sun will never rise again. But perhaps we've lost something by distancing ourselves so much for those roots.
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Postby meerkat » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:32 pm

Who's Wee Dug wrote:
SpyViolette wrote:I've watched the movie before, and because of it I am quite afraid Teatime is going to show up and kill me.


What!! at teatime. :wink: :lol:


I;d be more worried about Susan and that poker! :lol:
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Postby stripy_tie » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:38 pm

meerkat wrote:
Who's Wee Dug wrote:
SpyViolette wrote:I've watched the movie before, and because of it I am quite afraid Teatime is going to show up and kill me.


What!! at teatime. :wink: :lol:


I;d be more worried about Susan and that poker! :lol:


Ah, but the poker only kills monsters.
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Postby meerkat » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:54 pm

Yes, but Susan is known to wield Death's sword and that alone is enough to put anyone except Teatime off thier guard.

What I really like about Hogfather is the fact that another antromorphoic (whatever) being is willing to step into a dangerous breach and replace the Hogfather.
Death, I feel, becomes' the hero'. though DEATH would probably not see it like that.

Teatime is in the same league as Abanazer, twisted and in the end beaten, by the Good guys. Not a lamp this time but teeth. That to me was a nice twist, using the little ones. Controlling them by using a personal item.
A good book and a good early 'fun' horror story for children of all ages. Hogwatch or Christmas.

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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:10 pm

I've forgotten the name of the guy who played Teatime in the movie - Marc, someone or another - but he didn't influence my impression of Teatime in the book a bit. I found the movie portrayal to be too comedic and therefore I just ignore it. Teatime in the book is someone completely different to me.
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Postby DaveC » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Tonyblack wrote:I've forgotten the name of the guy who played Teatime in the movie - Marc, someone or another - but he didn't influence my impression of Teatime in the book a bit. I found the movie portrayal to be too comedic and therefore I just ignore it. Teatime in the book is someone completely different to me.


Marc Warren. I was a fan of his previously from Hustle on TV and now in his VirginMedia ads I keep imagining his lines in his Teatime voice. :)
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Postby meerkat » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:10 am

I thought Marc Warren was good as Teatime but not quite good enough - if you know what I mean.

Not sinister enough is what I think I mean.

I also consider David Jason much, much, better as Malich than as Rincewind. :D
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:01 pm

Hogfather is one of my favorite DW novels, for all the reasons others have been talking about.

At the same time, I find it one of the hardest books to re-read. There's just so much going on in it and the plot and ideas are so complex that it's not easy reading, and I can see why people would be put off by it.

Teatime is Pterry's best villain, even better than Pin and Tulip. Had he channelled his genius and sociopathy into politics instead of crime he could have become the Patrician.

While I thought the movie version of Hogfather was the best of all the DW adaptations to that time, and it was nearly totally faithful to the book, I found it incredibly slow moving and lacking in energy. The role of Ridcully in particular was woefully miscast; he was made to look and sound like a weak and doddering old fool, instead of the larger than life, robust, garrulous, outdoorsy man he is in the book.
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Postby LilMaibe » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:49 pm

raisindot wrote:Teatime is Pterry's best villain, even better than Pin and Tulip. Had he channelled his genius and sociopathy into politics instead of crime he could have become the Patrician.


I just have to ask this: Pure speculative, who'd be harder to 'inhume'? DEATH himself or Vetinari?
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Postby pip » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:50 pm

LilMaibe wrote:
raisindot wrote:Teatime is Pterry's best villain, even better than Pin and Tulip. Had he channelled his genius and sociopathy into politics instead of crime he could have become the Patrician.


I just have to ask this: Pure speculative, who'd be harder to 'inhume'? DEATH himself or Vetinari?


It cam pretty close for death in Reaper man where as its never been close for Vetinari :D
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Postby Penfold » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:06 pm

I beg to differ. If I recall correctly, I believe Vetinari got shot in the leg (when Vimes saved his life) which resulted in the reason for him walking with a cane. :D
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Postby pip » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:08 pm

Penfold wrote:I beg to differ. I believe Vetinari got shot in the leg which resulted in the reason for him walking with a cane. Vimes saved his life if I recall correctly. :D


But Vetinari made sure Vimes was in the right position to save his life :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:54 pm

pip wrote:
Penfold wrote:I beg to differ. I believe Vetinari got shot in the leg which resulted in the reason for him walking with a cane. Vimes saved his life if I recall correctly. :D


But Vetinari made sure Vimes was in the right position to save his life :wink:


AYE YE MATEY, OFF-TOPIC SPOILERS SIGHTED OFF TH' STARBOARD SIDE



Wasn't it actually Carrot who knocked Vetinari away from the fatal path of the bullet?
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Postby LilMaibe » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Time to re-read MaA :)

On a further side-note, concerning the movie, a little tidbit perhaps:

When in the movie the raditation shield blows up, we have three student opening the window, not Ponder. You think that might have been a nod towards the lads from Soul Music or just random?
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Postby swreader » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:14 pm

Dotsie wrote:but Teatime wasn't a very good villain. Like some other Pratchett baddies, he was a bit two-dimensional. Carcer for example was perfectly capable of passing himself off as a normal human (normalish), whereas Teatime, Andy Shank, and another I won't mention are just antisocial nutters - there's nothing more to them, and they're so predictable they aren't frightening.


Jeff, I have to agree with Dotsie--Teatime may have been better than Pin & Tulip, but he's not nearly as effective as Carcer or the Cunning Man. Both of them are sociopathic, and the Cunning Man is almost anthropomorphic. Carcer is perfectly capable of killing or corrupting young Vimes which would change the whole future of Ank-Morpork. And he seems, in the pleas he makes in the graveyard to Vimes, so almost normal--something Teatime never achieves.
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