Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Postby stripy_tie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:10 pm

raisindot wrote:
Doughnut Jimmy wrote:
If you see Terry's later books as fables (as in there is point to them about humanity or how the world works) then it is important for our sense of justice within the book that Stratford dies because he viciously murdered the goblin girl, the law couldn't have executed him for that even if he'd made it to court.


The law doesn't execute people. People execute people. If Stratford were tried under AM laws, he would be guilty of killing a sentient species. It would have been easy to prove the goblins' sentience--after all, Sybil made sure the entire world was aware of it.

So, Stratford would have been brought to justice, since Vetinari, for all his faults, is one who is extremely sensitive to species-related intolerance (and someone who would have seen the value of earning the trust of a population of obedient, nonviolent, highly skilled artisans who would be willing to work for cheap). Had he not brought Stratford for justice, he would have been villified by everyone who had seen the goblin girl play the harp in AM. He, of all people, knows where the political winds blow.

And even if Stratford could not be brought to justice in a trial, Vetinari would have found a way to make sure Stratford chose to choose the door to nowhere.


Didn't Vetinari say that the law couldn't be applied retroactively in regards to the goblins, therefore Stratford couldn't be tried under it.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:13 pm

BaldFriede wrote:You are missing the point; this is not about Carrot seeing himself as king. This is about how Carrot could have solved the situation without killing Cruces, and for Cruces Carrot IS the king, so he would probably accept an order from Carrot.


Not necessarily. I think cruces saw carrot the same way Wonse and Dragonking of Arms saw him (and nobby): As an easy to control puppet that would bow to their bidding once put on the throne
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Postby BaldFriede » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:36 pm

Quite possible. But that's still beside the point. Even if this was his idea, could he disobey a direct order from his king? I think not, at least not without completely messing up his goal. For if HE disobeys an order of his king, how can he expect anyone else following his orders? And that would be necessary if he wants to use Carrot as a tool.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:47 pm

As said, if he wants to use carrot as a tool, he sees himself above carrot. As someone who gives order, not follows them.
Carrot giving him orders would not be acceptable and wouldn't call for him to obey, as it would be 'against the rules'
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Postby BaldFriede » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:54 pm

Ah no, you are wrong here. You can't give orders to a king; even the dumbest of kings would say "!come again"? You can influence him with suggestions, but not with orders.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:13 pm

But Carrot is not King.
If he would have said that, cruces could have decided to not want carrot as king anymore and ignore the 'order'.

As Cruces is not delusional about the matter. He sees, as said, Carrot as a tool, not as an actual ruler that has to be obeyed whether or not his status as ruler is active or not.
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Postby BaldFriede » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:19 pm

But according to Cruces he IS. You can't have and eat your cake. If Cruces wants his plot to work, he has to accept Carrot as king and thus obey orders by him. If he disobeys orders by him, then the whole plot fails.
if he wants to influence the king he has to keep up the appearance of being his loyal subject, hence obey his orders. A king won't follow suggestions of a person who is not a loyal subject.
Last edited by BaldFriede on Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:29 pm

People are like that.
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Postby windscion » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Don't matter. Cruces was a murderer and he was pointing a gun at Vimes. Why would Headbanger risk Vimes life on the off chance that Cruces was insane in just such a way that he would obey his orders? That would be playing a dangerous and pointless game with Vimes's life. And unlike some people, Headbanger has no need to demonstrate his cleverness by doing stoopid things.
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Postby BaldFriede » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Cruces is a murderer, but he murdered for a goal. He is being depicted as being very eager to convince Carrot. Would he really give up everything just like that? I doubt it, but even if he did it would not change a thing. Carrot could still run the sword through him then. The point is Carrot did not make the effort.
Last edited by BaldFriede on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Australis » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:54 am

Apologies I've skipped a couple of pages. All this talk about Vimes condoning murder, and TP not being so consistent and allowing murder and vigilantism, blah blah blah.

I should remind y'all about Wyrd Sisters. Duchess Felmet met a rather sticky end in the forest when she escaped the castle. It may have been animals,. but it was vigilantism as well.

There's also Nuggan, though that happened offscreen. Lilith Weatherwax (and don't say she's alive, it's no life). Mr Tay-ah-tim-eh. All just deaths, for a given value of just, and allowing for narrativium. Stratford's may have been a bit more upfront than most, but it had to happen. Willikins did not like Young Sam being threatened, because he knew what it did to a man he is extremely loyal to. Willikins has tools he is prepared to use, and is not as constrained as Vimes would be. And Vimes specifically does not ask. Willikins is Schroedinger's Killer. :)
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Postby DaveC » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:51 am

Australis wrote:Willikins is Schroedinger's Killer. :)
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:55 am

raisindot wrote:
Doughnut Jimmy wrote:
If you see Terry's later books as fables (as in there is point to them about humanity or how the world works) then it is important for our sense of justice within the book that Stratford dies because he viciously murdered the goblin girl, the law couldn't have executed him for that even if he'd made it to court.


The law doesn't execute people. People execute people. If Stratford were tried under AM laws, he would be guilty of killing a sentient species. It would have been easy to prove the goblins' sentience--after all, Sybil made sure the entire world was aware of it.

So, Stratford would have been brought to justice, since Vetinari, for all his faults, is one who is extremely sensitive to species-related intolerance (and someone who would have seen the value of earning the trust of a population of obedient, nonviolent, highly skilled artisans who would be willing to work for cheap). Had he not brought Stratford for justice, he would have been villified by everyone who had seen the goblin girl play the harp in AM. He, of all people, knows where the political winds blow.

And even if Stratford could not be brought to justice in a trial, Vetinari would have found a way to make sure Stratford chose to choose the door to nowhere.



So what you're saying is Stratford would have been quietly disappeared by the government.
Since the whole last scene with VImes and Vetinari is a lengthy explanantion of why the law can't touch the young Rust for his part in it all!
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Postby BaldFriede » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:00 am

You are wrong; Willikins would not have been brought to justice, and completely under the laws of Ankh Morpork. Why? Quite simple: Because there is not a shade of proof. There simply is no case against Willikins. You may suspect him, but you can't bring someone to justice on a mere suspicion.
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Postby meerkat » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:09 am

Yes, Willikins does the deed on his own bat without confirmation with Vimes or seemingly that of Vetinari. There is no proof but Vimes knows his man servant.

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