Guards! Guards! Discussion Group *Spoilers*

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Postby Dotsie » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:She's the sort of woman who's completely disinterested in her own appearance 'cos nobody's ever bothered with her when she has tried to pull out all the stops, so she doesn't care that her hair's so constantly singed, she just wears a wig when she 'needs' to - which isn't very often. Clothes the same, no interest whatsoever, because they've never done her any good and all they have to do now is be low maintenance and offer some protection from her anxious mothering to her child substitutes, the swamp dragons

Have you ever seen the French & Saunders 'posh old country ladies' sketches? They're the Roundworld Sybils :lol:


But I don't think he did describe them like the posh old country ladies though, she does seem to turn into this later - more strapping than fat. And its definitely implied that she's bald, rather than just singed. I think Terry did her an injustice in GG, but it got rectified afterwards.
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:43 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Women are not logical for one thing - not with affairs of the hearts anyway and with animals in particular.


I agree with the second part of that sentence at least, although it doesn't apply to all women - my rabbits would stink the house out, therefore they live outside. I know some people who keep rabbits indoors, but a) their house smells like wee but they just don't seem to be able to smell it, and b) stuff gets eaten, like carpets, furniture, clothing etc. Even though dragons are stinkier still, there would be some people who wouldn't seem to notice.
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Postby Trish » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:08 pm

He ... never showed in Night Watch, though

Actually (and this isn't really a spoiler) there is a "Leggy" Gaskin in Night Watch. :D


I found that out when I looked last night. Shame on me.
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Postby Trish » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:25 pm

kakaze wrote:I didn't like the inital physical characteristics of... Carrot and Lady Ramkin. Why did they both need to be described, repeatedly, as being so large?


Because they are both larger than life.

Carrot really is good, kind and noble. He really does care about everyone.

Sybil is portrayed as large because she embodies (I like that word this week) all the qualities that Vimes has never found in a woman --save his mother. Secondarily, her size indicates the "height" of the upper class; a height Vimes could never hope to scale and has always been in awe of.

Sybil gives her love particularly, while Carrot gives his indiscriminately.


kakaze wrote:Women: would any of you want to raise a pet that burns holes in your floors & clothes, smells like a tannery, causes hair-loss, and might explode at any time?


Well, no. But I have 2 cats. I hate cats. They shed, they throw up, they get into everything (Tibby got behind the bathrub yesterday and had a good time playing with the pipes and cobwebs), they poop every 4 minutes, they cry when you don't feed them the "right" canned cat food, they can catch all sorts of diseases from feline HIV to leukemia.

But what are you supposed to do?

Both cats were found. Kitty came from the junkyard and Tibby was loose on the street in front of my daughter's school. Are you supposed to just let them starve when the reason they're out there is some dumb human?

The parallel is not necessarily "women & pets," but people who take in and take care of abandoned things.
Sir Terry is a cat-lover (they grow on you. Sort of.) and has had a few found cats.
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:30 pm

Trish wrote:He ... never showed in Night Watch, though

Actually (and this isn't really a spoiler) there is a "Leggy" Gaskin in Night Watch. :D


I found that out when I looked last night. Shame on me.
His widow also gets a mention in Men At Arms. :)
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:36 pm

Dotsie wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:She's the sort of woman who's completely disinterested in her own appearance 'cos nobody's ever bothered with her when she has tried to pull out all the stops, so she doesn't care that her hair's so constantly singed, she just wears a wig when she 'needs' to - which isn't very often. Clothes the same, no interest whatsoever, because they've never done her any good and all they have to do now is be low maintenance and offer some protection from her anxious mothering to her child substitutes, the swamp dragons

Have you ever seen the French & Saunders 'posh old country ladies' sketches? They're the Roundworld Sybils :lol:


But I don't think he did describe them like the posh old country ladies though, she does seem to turn into this later - more strapping than fat. And its definitely implied that she's bald, rather than just singed. I think Terry did her an injustice in GG, but it got rectified afterwards.


I was thinking more of the bit where Sybil's croney's for the Sunshine Sanctuary meeting - ever see old lady dog-breeders at an Agricultural show or Cruft's even? :lol: They're just as batty about animals but don't need the armour of course - and just look at the downright ugly little mutts they shower all their attention on? That kind of devotion and eccentricity works in either case :wink:

As for the hair - I suspect she probably shaved it off to save the bother of trying to cut around the singes and burns all the time "stuff and nonsense - doesn't hurt at all!" (extemporised from F&S) :P

And the stinky animals - the nose is a very resilient sensory organ if you give it half a chance and half an hour very often. Is why room fresheners are really a con - after a bit you don't notice anything odd about the pong and when you love the smelly little pets it doesn't matter in the slightest any more as you say :D

I agree Sybil's more strapping (beefy) than tall but when you're 5' 2" and mousy quiet with no charisma whatsoever (or even smaller like Nobby and your charisma's impressive but in the other direction :lol: ) that's just as impressive as being 6'6" or whatever that Carrot is. It's like Meat Loaf off-stage - he's still just as 'big' and over-whelming but in a different way to when he sings 'cos he's loud and barking :twisted:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:09 pm

For those of you not aware of the posh old country ladies by French and Saunders - have a look at THIS - the swearing stops around the 18 sec mark. It's the attitude more than anything else although I think they did do one with dogs with it which was nearer the mark with the dog/dragon fancier thing... :lol:

EDIT - and it should have been 'fuss and nonsense' - long time since I've seen it though :) But that's what I mean, Sybil's a no frills lady and it's that frankness and open-heartedness that attracts Sam more than anything I think? She sees everything and loves him anyway - irresistable :!:
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Postby poohbcarrot » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:27 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
Hmmm? :P I'm wondering here whether you're a younger man than I thought Kakaze... You may have overlooked some important womanly attributes - and for once I think pooh may actually back me up with (some) of this...

Women are not logical for one thing -


I'll back you up, no worries! :lol:

Women? Mad as snakes, the lot of'em! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em! :lol:
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Postby Cheery » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:55 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:
Hmmm? :P I'm wondering here whether you're a younger man than I thought Kakaze... You may have overlooked some important womanly attributes - and for once I think pooh may actually back me up with (some) of this...

Women are not logical for one thing -


I'll back you up, no worries! :lol:

Women? Mad as snakes, the lot of'em! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em! :lol:


AHEM...
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:30 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:Women? Mad as snakes, the lot of'em! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em! :lol:


Yup, gotta agree with that. Of course Men, riding about on two, three and four wheeled contraptions, flipping about and busting their bones, teeth, and everything in between are sane as sunshine.

Hubby and friends ride ATVs, four wheeled contraptions, their sons ride two wheeled monster dirt bikes or skateboards or silly shoes with wheels in the back and build insane ramps to jump snowmobiles over attempting to cheat Death every day. I know what he looks like now and will watch at the buffet table for him at our next party.

I hear stories about the ramps that I see littering the landscape out here on the farm and they usually go, "Well, First Bobby tried it, then after the ambulance left, Chuck gave it a go. Well, we managed to save his snowmobile. Then Smitty decided to give it a shot... and well, we decided to retire THIS ramp" There's a lot to be said for Medic Training around this place.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby Trish » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:29 pm

poohbcarrot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Women are not logical for one thing -


Women? Mad as snakes, the lot of'em! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em! :lol:


True, Jan, but we are much more pragmatic.
Again, reference Sybil: she does what she can how she can and lets go of the rest.

Yes, poohb. But I'm in America and I can fire back.
Soon as I get the laser sight for my Mossberg back from whichever cat has it under the couch.
Again, reference Sybil. What's considered outlandish by many (feeding and breeding dragons) is just plain enjoyable for others. Except the under the couch bit.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:49 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Women are not logical for one thing - not with affairs of the hearts anyway and with animals in particular.


I'm getting quoted slightly out of context here - so just for the record :wink:

I do agree on pragmatic as well - men are actually far more inclined to be romantic than women in some ways I think. However, a lady like Sybil who's been unlucky or unkindly overlooked in love, whilst she might feel she has to compromise quite a lot, wouldn't necessarily go and grab whatever she can get because she's doesn't see things so superficially or indeed desperately.

Having been on the receiving end of rejection so long, she tends to look deeper and find the value and quality of the beings she's inclined to love - with Errol she hasn't given up on him just because he's a poor runt of a pedigree and so she doesn't really want to do what most fanatical of breeders would do and get him neutered or even put down. She gives him to Sam because she feels sorry for them both and perhaps she thinks they will bond - and it's her opening 'negotiations' with Sam as well of course, but also she's testing him a little as well, seeing if there's more to him and not completely trusting her instincts?

I'm explaining myself badly, but when you know you're not naturally 'lovable' you're also very careful who you give your heart to because in part you can't see how they could love you back - it'd be too hurtful. But Sybil's looking for something real on both sides - certainly not romance as such, because she knows she's not cut out for that. Also she's a sensibly compassionate person so she sees clearly and assesses what's important on both sides before deciding that Sam is worth the risk of falling in love with. Then she goes for it with the pink bunny dressing gown!
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:07 am

Trish wrote:
poohbcarrot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Women are not logical for one thing -


Women? Mad as snakes, the lot of'em! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em! :lol:


True, Jan, but we are much more pragmatic.
Again, reference Sybil: she does what she can how she can and lets go of the rest.

Yes, poohb. But I'm in America and I can fire back.
Soon as I get the laser sight for my Mossberg back from whichever cat has it under the couch.
Again, reference Sybil. What's considered outlandish by many (feeding and breeding dragons) is just plain enjoyable for others. Except the under the couch bit.


Have you looked at the owners, breeders, and show-ers of dogs? And how Ugly some of them can be? Cats are included, ungh hairless breeds make me nuts. shivers
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:35 am

I must be very accepting though. I simply immerse myself into whatever book I am reading/devouring/memorizing.

Sybil had Sam's heart from the beginning, once he got over the fear of being killed by her or having to arrest her for murder. He had never been in a real relationshipship before. As least from what I have gleaned from the series.

I am living proof that a Sybil can marry a Sam. I am the one who proposed to my husband 6 1/2 years ago. He was 50 at the time and had never been married. I used to fix robots for a ridiculously large amount of money from Chrysler. It put most men off, I found (the money, and well, the brains to fix robots...). I wore/wear durable and sensible type clothing, but clean up fairly well. I even own a couple of Corsets. :oops: Though not Whalebone.

I thoroughly enjoyed the shock when Sam realized that "Brenda Rodley" was actually the Duchess of Quirm. It makes sense, especially given the nature of breeders. You would simply have to have clothing for acidic, explosive creatures, and a sensibility to sew up, or bandage said animals. hmm sort of like a mixture of a Horse sense and exploding rabbits with Large Pointy Teeth.

I was taught manners at a very young age, but even I would be confused with a complete battery of cutlery.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:25 am

I agree - there certainly seems to be some chemistry between Sam and Sybil from quite early on - although I'm not sure how aware they both are of this, I'd say that Sybil was more aware than Sam and actually flirts with him somewhat.

I wonder if Terry had planned this as the first book in a series about the Watch or whether it was going to be a one-off. A few of the characters certainly get tweaked in the later books. As was mentioned, Sybil's wigs are never mentioned again (I'm pretty sure).

Carrot is an important character in this book. It's through Carrot's eyes that we see the city and how it works. In some ways he's used as a device to explore - in later books he's used as a sort of go-between with the dwarfs and we find out Dwarf culture through his eyes.

Is he the king in this book? It's interesting that Terry hints at it throughout the book but never actually supplies any evidence. Had this been a one-off book and we never saw the Watch again, we could just chuckle that somewhere in the city is a simple hick who may or may not be the rightful heir to the throne. :)
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